Punch Blocking

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Traceroo

Rogue
I'm the head Safety & Weapons Marshal for Alliance Denver. By way of personal background, I build a lot of boffer weapons. I've been LARPing and fighting in systems like Alliance since 1992.

I'd like to know if "punch blocking" is considered a legal move in your chapters nationwide. Is this a move that's used in your game ever? Has the question of its legality in terms of safety come up in your game?

In Denver, we have occasional problems reported with players punch blocking. This is a maneuver in which the defender uses her fist closed around the grip of her own weapon to block an incoming shot. (It's the fist that's blocking it, not the weapon, and not even its grip.) Sometimes this happens to any combatant accidentally. This move is legal in systems like Amtgard from which our game draws a lot of players. To be fair, I want to state that I have not received a single complaint about or from any of the Amtgarders -- as far as I can tell, they use this move sparingly, safely, and if their hands ever get scraped from it, they keep that to themselves. The few complaints I have received as a Marshal or personally observed come from players from other backgrounds -- some of whom look to the Amtgarders as role models of good fighting technique.

Related, do your chapters allow players to block incoming shots with the unpadded grip of a weapon? There is a fighting style which chokes up on the grip of a 1-handed long weapon, and uses the unpadded grip to guard one's forearm passively. My take is that this move is not in the spirit of safety or the Alliance rules -- AND it's super hard to watch for and correct. It is, however, largely a move used by refined fighters who know what they're doing -- and therefore can be asked to avoid that like the good sportsmen we presume all our players to be. What are the thoughts of other Safety Marshals on this move?

Thanks for your anticipated input,

Trace Moriarty
Safety & Weapons Marshal
Alliance Denver
 
Hands are not a legal target in alliance. If they're accidentally hit in combat, it's polite to let your opponent know that you won't be taking that damage and that they've hit you there so that they can correct their behaviour. As non-legal targets, they also cannot be used to intentionally block. Now, stuff happens, and if it's an accident, then sorting it usually isn't an issue. But someone who's actively making use of their hands as blocking surfaces is violating the rules and should not only be taking that damage, they ought to be pulled aside and talked to about it, possibly disciplined if it continues.

There's nothing wrong with a long grip and letting that be a blocking surface though. It's effectively no different blocking-wise than turning your boffer point down and holding it along your arm.
 
Thanks for response, Inaryn! I presume that you are a Safety Marshal in the San Francisco chapter?

Let me ask you a follow up: If you think that blocking with the unpadded grip of a weapon is legal -- why would blocking with your hand holding that unpadded grip not also be legal? The combatant could just as easily block in the same space with pipe instead of one's hand. What's the effective difference in the opinion of your chapter?

Thanks,
Trace
 
You should discourage the practice, despite the fact that it is technically legal, for safety and fair play related reasons.

Safety - That particular type of block causes more damage to the striking weapon than when it is blocked by padding. It is especially damaging if the player misses and the striking weapon then hits the unpadded shaft / grip. In general, you want to discourage behavior that causes extra wear and tear on weapons, which can lead to an unsafe situation later.

Safety - Additionally, all it takes to turn a punch-block into a punch in the face is one unexpected move by an opponent. This move creates the likelihood of an actual punch being landed at some point.

Fair Play - While these punch blockers almost certainly aren't trying to cheat, a punch block can easily create the appearance of cheating. Blows that land on the fist look like they hit a legal target, especially if they are close to the wrist. It gets especially shady when blows hit both fist and forearm. Yes, the fist isn't a legal target, but it isn't a weapon either, so technically that shouldn't count as a deflection and thus the blow should count. It is very likely the person doing the punch block isn't counting the blow, though.


My opinion is discourage it strongly without banning it. And when I say discourage it strongly, if players choose to ignore the discouragement, enact strict punishments (no additional warnings) should the behavior cause an unsafe condition or interfere with fair play.

-MS
 
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I don't see a lot of punch blocking here in Seattle/Oregon. I have seen hands hit on accident by either a bad swing/bad block that caused it to connect with the hand. Some have lead to injuries but most just lead to stung fingers.

I definitely do not see people "punching" at a weapon to block it. So, I am not sure how this would lead to a punch to the face, but if someone is trying to actually punch a weapon, I would definitely put a stop to it immediately. This is a Larp not MMA.

As for blocking with the grip, its completely legal as per the rules. Look at one handed spears or pole arms. A large portion of the weapon can be a grip with just wound cord or tape. People use one handed spears as a blocking weapon. That would tear up a weapon faster than a hand shot. (Not to mention, metal armor kills weapons fastest.) The difference is the safety for the player who is blocking. We do not want hand injuries. Think about all the things people do with their hands. Hand injuries take people out of most of their lives. It's no bueno.
 
Hands are not a legal target in alliance. If they're accidentally hit in combat, it's polite to let your opponent know that you won't be taking that damage and that they've hit you there so that they can correct their behaviour. As non-legal targets, they also cannot be used to intentionally block.

Fully agree with this.

Look at it another way: The head is an illegal target. You are not allowed to intentionally aim for the head (but stuff happens), and you certainly don't (or shouldn't) see people using their heads to block (the act of "turtling" with a shield does this, and is illegal; we have also disallowed people from "peeking" around corners during combat in SEA and OR because in that situation you are only presenting your head as a target to people around the corner which is basically what "Turtling" is).

People are likely blocking with their hands because it doesn't hurt, but that doesn't make it legal.

Different body parts, sure, but the principle is the same.

If you think that blocking with the unpadded grip of a weapon is legal -- why would blocking with your hand holding that unpadded grip not also be legal?

Because a weapon is a legal target to hit, and hands are not.
 
Punch blocking intentionally is illegal in that you aren't allowed to intentionally put illegal targets into the line of fire. Hand, groin and head shots are illegal for safety reasons. Punch blocking is from a rules perspective, equivalent to moving your head into an attack. We recently had a player injured from a combination of a hard swing and a shot to the hand. Don't do this.
 
Punch blocking (as described above) is in the gray area of the rules. It IS legal to block with the haft of your weapon. Effectively, a punch block is just a block with the haft / grip of your weapon that happens to be made from an angle where the striking weapon only impacts your hand. The rules explicitly say that if you intentionally block a weapon with a fist or hand that ISN'T holding a weapon, you must take the strike, despite the fact that it is a hit on a legal target. But the rules don't say the same for a block with a hand holding a weapon (which is effectively identical to blocking with the weapon).

Just to emphasize the legality (in at least one situation). The rules explicitly let me block with a bow. When I hold a bow, I hold the grip that is in the middle of the bow. It is common that I take a few hits on my hand while blocking and I commonly actively move my bow in the direction of the striking weapon (in order to get a good block). This is a lesser form of a punch block that does precisely what you claimed is illegal, yet is explicitly permitted per the rules.

-MS
 
If the intent of your block is to use your hand (not the hilt, not the pommel, not the rest of your weapon, but your hand), I would pull the player aside discretely and inform them that they're not acting in accordance with the spirit of the rules, of which prioritizes safety above all else. I'd do this discretely because, based on the player's LARP background, they might be doing this for what they believe is entirely reasonable. I know there are some players who feel our rules are too safe, but that's tough, they need to realize that's how our game works. After explaining it, if the behavior continues, I'd discipline them accordingly.
 
Punch blocking (as described above) is in the gray area of the rules. It IS legal to block with the haft of your weapon. Effectively, a punch block is just a block with the haft / grip of your weapon that happens to be made from an angle where the striking weapon only impacts your hand. The rules explicitly say that if you intentionally block a weapon with a fist or hand that ISN'T holding a weapon, you must take the strike, despite the fact that it is a hit on a legal target. But the rules don't say the same for a block with a hand holding a weapon (which is effectively identical to blocking with the weapon).

Just to emphasize the legality (in at least one situation). The rules explicitly let me block with a bow. When I hold a bow, I hold the grip that is in the middle of the bow. It is common that I take a few hits on my hand while blocking and I commonly actively move my bow in the direction of the striking weapon (in order to get a good block). This is a lesser form of a punch block that does precisely what you claimed is illegal, yet is explicitly permitted per the rules.

-MS

Hands are explicitly listed as an illegal target. References below.

Page 8 of the ARB:

The Body Contact Rule: Alliance games
prohibit all body contact during combat. All
combat must take place with approved safe
weapons, and certain parts of the body (head,
groin, hands) are not allowed to be hit. (page
93)

Page 93 of the ARB:

Legal targets: Legal targets include the
entire body except the head, neck, throat, hands
from the wrist out
, and the groin.

In summary:
Don't intentionally block with your hands, weapon in-hand or otherwise.
 
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Thanks for response, Inaryn! I presume that you are a Safety Marshal in the San Francisco chapter?

Let me ask you a follow up: If you think that blocking with the unpadded grip of a weapon is legal -- why would blocking with your hand holding that unpadded grip not also be legal? The combatant could just as easily block in the same space with pipe instead of one's hand. What's the effective difference in the opinion of your chapter?

Thanks,
Trace

So, a lot of folks have pretty much answered this for me. Hands are an illegal target because they're prone to real world injury. Accidents happen, which is why it's good form to let people know when they do, and report it if it continues unabated.

Hand surgery and broken bones isn't fun... And that's something I can personally speak to.
 
True, but most latex weapons do not come with one. And many style of weapons are not made with hand guards.
 
Sure, but if you are a player that finds it difficult to block without getting hit in the hand, sacrificing a modest amount of boffer weapon verisimilitude to spare your knuckles and respect the rules is probably the right call.
 
I agree that it's illegal, but after years in Amtgard (where hand/punch blocking is legal), if you are breaking your fingers in Alliance while punch blocking, the other person is swinging too hard or their weapon is illegal. We swing softer here in Alliance than we do in Amtgard and in 15 years of Amtgard I have never had a broken finger. Punch blocking is not nearly as dangerous as people are making it out to be. The biggest thing is you are saving yourself a few knuckle scrapes.
 
I agree that it's illegal, but after years in Amtgard (where hand/punch blocking is legal), if you are breaking your fingers in Alliance while punch blocking, the other person is swinging too hard or their weapon is illegal. We swing softer here in Alliance than we do in Amtgard and in 15 years of Amtgard I have never had a broken finger. Punch blocking is not nearly as dangerous as people are making it out to be. The biggest thing is you are saving yourself a few knuckle scrapes.

1) A hit with illegal force won't cause injury if it strikes a weapon. Hard hits happen, and they will continue to happen, at every game ever, due to adrenaline, weapon breakdown, or a lack of awareness of a factor. Ergo, it's absolutely reasonable to require that players block with legal blocking devices, so as to avoid injury in the event of an illegal swing.

2) Broken fingers probably won't happen, but jammed/bruised hands absolutely can, and have, and can turn a fighter into a medforged healer for the rest of the event.

Is punch blocking all that dangerous? Nah. Is it more dangerous that blocking with the rest of your weapon? Obviously. So, yeah, that's sorta where it's at.
 
Agreed Draven, I just felt like some of the comments on here were a slight over exaggeration. :)
 
Dan Nickname Beshers: Great suggestion about building hand guards onto weapons! I know many of our local chapter's fighters who utilize that style of fighting tell me that they have weapon reps from other games with hand guards built in since hands are legal target areas there. That's an excellent compromise, and I'll suggest it locally. By the way, I'd also like to compliment your use of "verisimilitude." :)

Injuries: Alliance Denver has seen nothing but some scraped knuckles worthy of a booboo kiss and nothing more serious over punch blocking. I don't want to elevate this LARP myth to the level of that guy whose eyeballs literally exploded when he was hit too hard with an ultralite!

Blocking with unpadded sections of the weapon (grip, haft, dragon's tooth gap if allowed): Those who have commented on the second part of my question seem to offer a tacit acceptance that "of course" this is legal within the rules -- since the rules do not expressly prohibit such action. My thinking is this: The spirit of our overall rules about having boffer combat rather strongly implies that we here at Alliance are to fight with padded objects (boffer weapons and packets) and therefore padded objects only.

On the one hand, allowing players to block with unpadded surfaces makes about as much sense to me as allowing players to block with a wooden walking stick, for example.

On the other hand, is blocking with the unpadded section of a weapon really unsafe to humans? I don't think it is. Sure, striking your weapon against unpadded surfaces will increase wear and tear on it -- but storing your weapons tips-down, or leaving them in the car on a hot or cold day will do far worse. Our safety regulations are designed to prevent damage to humans, not mandate good practices in long-term maintenance of weapon physreps.

Pros of Allowing Blocking With Unpadded Sections
  • Less regulation generally = more fun just fighting and having a good time at the game
  • Less padding on a weapon makes it lighter, more comfortable to wield
  • Allows combatants to exercise greater creativity with their fighting style = more fun
Cons
  • Increased risk of minor injuries such as scraped knuckles
  • Srsly, we're thinking of endorsing fighting with bare pipe??
  • It's all fun and games until someone's eyeballs literally explode... That happened once, btw.
  • Risk of eroding the game environment of safety that Alliance wishes to foster overall

Truthfully, I haven't personally witnessed any real safety problems with blocking with unpadded weapon sections. As a practical matter, I don't think this is a big deal.

As a lawfully-aligned person, however, I have to admit that allowing this seems wildly against the general spirit of our overall system of boffer combat. It makes no sense to me in the grand scheme.

I think we've largely settled the punch blocking issue, and I thank all contributors for your comments. I'd like to dig into the second portion of this question, and I look forward to your comments on this question.

Thanks again,

Trace Moriarty
Denver
 
The second part is pretty much cut and dried, honestly. You can block with a spear or a polearm. Both have massive sections that are unpadded. In fact, holding a spear point down and effectively using it as a skinny shield has been a common fighting style in Alliance for almost 20 years (I have witnessed it for roughly that long). If somebody is blocking with bare pipe while wielding a two handed sword, you should probably watch them for safety issues. And if they are doing it while wielding a long sword, you should almost certainly watch for safety issues. But for weapons with large portions of bare pipe (polearms, spears, and axes come to mind), this pretty much has to be acceptable practice.

-MS
 
Dosnt matter what part of the weapon you use to block, so long as its blocking, not intentionally striking. Its blocking, aka keeping someone else from hitting you by stopping or disrupting their weapon's path of motion. Weather thats done with a padded or non-padded weapon surface seems irrelevant.
 
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