A Different way to deploy 'Paragons'

After reading the below what is your current thought on this idea?

  • Fully Against

    Votes: 29 60.4%
  • Partially Against - Would probably not use

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • Partially in Favor - Might use, or know people you think would enjoy this

    Votes: 8 16.7%
  • Fully in Favor

    Votes: 1 2.1%
  • Don't Really Care, I just Hate Paragons in general so method doesn't apply/Matter to me

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I like/Love Paragons, but I very much dislike this method of delivery.

    Votes: 5 10.4%

  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .

Lurin

Duke
Preface - I am looking for constructive feedback, this is being considered after people have 'talked with their owner' as a possibly proposal. The owner council is not Aggressively against this and would like to know what Players think.

What if Paragon classes (with a bit of tweaking) were not a build sink, but instead required "Unique and specialized training" That drops a PC down by X very large build number (50 - 100 for each of the first 'path' levels, +25/+ 50 etc. for additional paths, Possibly slightly less) With the requirement changed to be what you needed to take the training but the restriction of one path removed.

This could help dramatically deal with build/damage bloat, while also allowing an easier way to Medium-Spirit-Forge. This would also clearly be most 'advantageous' at lower builds (faster to come back to the minimum) but in that case the PC is mainly staying around the lower over all levels. While in theory a player could build an 'optimal' toon with 3 paths plus build, honestly that would take a VERY VERY long time (100 build x5 + 125 build x5 + 150 Build x5) in this example and the resulting character at level 30 would likely be less of an issue than a level 60 character without paragons that would be build in that same time frame.

Considerations

A.) Some paragon paths would have to be tweaked to ensure abilities were universally usable (although might still be better synergized with specific builds)

B.) This could help lower the APL as there would be potential paths for long-lived characters

C.) This allows players to try new play styles without giving up on their personal plot lines etc.

D.) If poorly done this could feel 'mandatory' for players who otherwise would not be interested.

E.) Characters might be disincentivized to do this if it breaks them away from their fellow friends.

F.) Characters might desire to do this to have their experience be closer to their friends. (For example, that one guy in his group of 6 that travels far more often than his friends)

G.) Some abilities would ONLY be available by the process

That's it folks, please be polite in this discussion! You may update your vote in the poll above if someone convinces you to change your opinion.

Clarified Questions.

1.) Yes you would decrease you character's XP total by the cost of the paragon path, but the path itself 'costs' no XP

2.) Yes each paragon path would still have multiple (5?) steps, each step costs the same on that path

3.) Secondary paths costs addition XP reduction, but that cost is the same for each step.

4.) Yes you would regain XP based on your current level.
 

Kasuni

Squire
I think this is an interesting way to add growth opportunities for high level players, without simple increasing damage.

At 50 build, I would likely drop the build and progress on a path immediately. For 100, it is still possible, but I'm not certain I would go for it.

Overall as a concept, I like it as a mechanism for purchasing the paragon paths.

I'll clarify that my "Yes" vote is in favor of this method of purchase, rather than of the Paths themselves.
 
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Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
I voted "Partially Against - Would probably not use."

Aside from the problem of introducing new and confusing effects that work differently from other, similar effects (like ranged Repel that doesn't require the somatic component?) that would add more ambiguity and complexity where the ostensible goal of the update is to lessen those qualities, the Paragon Paths as they exist have exactly zero interest for me. There was another thread covering kinds of Earth Scholar paragon paths that some players would like to see, such as undead slayer, which is a path I would be interested in, but as they stand, none of the paths are interesting for me or my concept, and from the sounds of the dialogue, it sounds as though paths I'd want to pick up are unlikely to get written.
 

Lurin

Duke
I voted "Partially Against - Would probably not use."

Aside from the problem of introducing new and confusing effects that work differently from other, similar effects (like ranged Repel that doesn't require the somatic component?) that would add more ambiguity and complexity where the ostensible goal of the update is to lessen those qualities, the Paragon Paths as they exist have exactly zero interest for me. There was another thread covering kinds of Earth Scholar paragon paths that some players would like to see, such as undead slayer, which is a path I would be interested in, but as they stand, none of the paths are interesting for me or my concept, and from the sounds of the dialogue, it sounds as though paths I'd want to pick up are unlikely to get written.
So to clarify, there method of purchasing Paragon either way is fine with you, but it'll be based on a cost/benefit analysis of what is does for your character (similar to any other skill really)?
 

Samyania

Scholar
Seattle Staff
So to clarify, there method of purchasing Paragon either way is fine with you, but it'll be based on a cost/benefit analysis of what is does for your character (similar to any other skill really)?
Yes. Essentially, it doesn't matter what the price is, because I'm not buying what the Paragon Paths are selling. I suppose that wasn't exactly the question you were asking...
 

Ruki

Scholar
This is a super interesting idea. I'm not 100% sure if I like it more than the current.

I am currently at about 140 XP/build....so it would depend on the cost for me. 50 XP? I would probably be ok with that, trade some current stuff for some newer/flashier abilities. But 100 would hurt a lot (although, not so much for the higher level people). BUT! On the other hand, regaining XP at a lower level (I miss getting 4-6 build points per event) would make that a little more bearable.

I would still take part in a paragon path. They just offer so much flavor and I want to be a part of that.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
@Lurin How would this interact with Spirit Forge? Let's say I have 200 build. I drop 100 of that for Paragon related stuff. I Spirit Forge. What happens? Am I forced to take an equivalent amount of Paragon related stuff? Do I get my build back? Do I lose it forever? What happens if I Spirit Forge because I really genuinely dislike Paragons after trying them, and decide that they definitely aren't for me?
 

BChapin

Newbie
While its an interesting way of applying the paragons, I think some of them would need tweaking to fit this sort of gain due to how the paragon works.

For example: One of the ones I was interested, Steelsoul, has a hidden barrier of entry that restricts you to 10 armor maximum (due to gaining 10 Natural Armor from the paragon class), until you have high magic (6 needed to get to the base 25 max armor spellswords, 8 for max paragon class armor of 30). Getting the extra 50/100 build over this would just make it harder to enter/stay in this paragon. I'm curious how difficult it would make others.
 

Lurin

Duke
That's a good question, under this design, Paragon skills do not have requirements you must maintain, so you obviously wouldn't lose them. It definitely doesn't work to refund the XP for obvious reasons. So either you'd be stuck with them forever, or allow that in the case of a Spirit forge the paragon class ranks could be respent on a path you could take at the beginning of the Forge, or at the end of it. (So either based on what you are when Spirit forging, or at the end of that event after training)
 

Alavatar

Baron
Questions:
  1. To be clear, you are talking about taking the currently as-proposed Paragon paths and only changing their means of acquisition, but not the Paragon paths themselves (except for some tweaking)?
  2. You mentioned a requirement of "what you need to take the training" ... is that expected to be a set of skills that would need to remain on the character card to maintain the path or are you thinking those skills would be a pre-requisite that could be lost with the sacrificial build?
  3. Is the expectation that PCs would be able to provide the "training" or would it be NPC only training?
  4. Could a Paragon Path be taken multiple times (if for some reason someone wants to do that)?
Comments:
  • I think the idea is interesting. I am not sure I would sacrifice 50-100 build per level for any of the current Paragon paths.
  • This sounds like a potential means of making Shadow Mage / Dragon Mage an actual achievable PC goal, which could be good.
  • Managing the Logistics / Database for these sounds cumbersome.
 

Avaran

Baron
This really reminds me of the DDO system of "true resurrection" (or whatever it was called).

Before I vote, I have a couple of questions:

What happens if I 'drop 50 build' and don't have enough to cover the skills I've already have? Will we be allowed to run a build deficit?

For example:
I'm at 250 Build, and I have purchased 249 build worth of abilities. If I buy this for -50 build, I would be at 199 build and -50 build.

Also to clarify:
If I am a 40th level character, and I buy 3 of this for 150 Build and drop down 15 levels to 25th level, do I gain build back at the rate a 25th level character would, or would I still earn it at the rate of a 40th level character?!?

In general though, Melee is already WAF, and I think this would only hurt that play style depending on what Paragons get turned into; I don't know that I would want to buy this and lose build and feel more gimp than I'd already be. Paragons would need to be *significantly* buffed to warrant losing build as a melee.
 
I have a few questions and possibly concerns. The concerns, however, are entirely dependent on if I am actually understanding this proposal correctly (which I am not certain I am).

If I understand correctly, each paragon path still has the same pre-reqs (X build in specific type of skills). Then instead of spending 10 build (or more for multiple path levels), you instead reduce your spent build by that value and then gain the path features.

Question #1: Is the above true?
Question #2: If it is true, do you lose skills that were bought with that build or do you go into debt that must be repaid?
Question #3: Does your level change? (I am guessing yes if you lose the build)
Question #4: Can you buy multiple levels of the path at the same time?
Question #5: If you can buy multiple levels at the same time, do you have to qualify for the path pre-reqs at the moment of the mass purchase or do you check between each purchase to ensure that you still meet the pre-reqs?
Question #6: Can you buy multiple paths at the same time (with the appropriate surcharge)?
Question #7: If you can buy multiple paths at the same time, same question as #5, but in relation to multiple paths?

-MS
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I am utterly against Paragons. I believe it would be better to have a system like Formal Magic (and absorb Formal Magic, for that matter), where characters use a point system to select abilities based on pre-reqs. Got Parries? You qualify for Spell Parry. Got Backstab/Proficiencies? You can activate a carrier of your choice for ten minutes (Earth/Chaos/SLIF). Got Blacksmithing? 1/day Instant Refit. Got Alchemy/Potions/Scrollmaking? 1/day you duplicate a single thing you just used (two Cure Morts for the price of one, or two Evocation scrolls, or two Sleep gasses). I'm just making this up on the fly. But it would be versatile, streamlined, based off an existing mechanic, and also far easier to amend (editing individual abilities versus having to rebalance an entire path).
 

Ruki

Scholar
I am utterly against Paragons. I believe it would be better to have a system like Formal Magic (and absorb Formal Magic, for that matter), where characters use a point system to select abilities based on pre-reqs. Got Parries? You qualify for Spell Parry. Got Backstab/Proficiencies? You can activate a carrier of your choice for ten minutes (Earth/Chaos/SLIF). Got Blacksmithing? 1/day Instant Refit. Got Alchemy/Potions/Scrollmaking? 1/day you duplicate a single thing you just used (two Cure Morts for the price of one, or two Evocation scrolls, or two Sleep gasses). I'm just making this up on the fly. But it would be versatile, streamlined, based off an existing mechanic, and also far easier to amend (editing individual abilities versus having to rebalance an entire path).
But with that you run into an issue (well, issue in my mind) we currently have: Every character looks/feels/plays pretty much the same.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
But with that you run into an issue (well, issue in my mind) we currently have: Every character looks/feels/plays pretty much the same.
I don't define characters by their Build Points.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
But with that you run into an issue (well, issue in my mind) we currently have: Every character looks/feels/plays pretty much the same.
I feel this experience may vary by chapter or individual. Just looking at my local chapter, I don't really feel that when I need to bring someone along on a module, that I can pick any two characters and say, "Take whoever, they're basically the same." Is this a challenge that you run into locally?
 

Ruki

Scholar
I feel this experience may vary by chapter or individual. Just looking at my local chapter, I don't really feel that when I need to bring someone along on a module, that I can pick any two characters and say, "Take whoever, they're basically the same." Is this a challenge that you run into locally?

I shouldn't have said "looks/feels", because that comes down to character/flair of each individual.

But in my mind? If you pick any two or three level 20 fighters, odds are they are going to be built very similar. Handful of profs, a couple slays, maybe some disarms/shatters, whatever. It's just kinda blah to me. But paragons give people a chance to branch out from the standard builds... do something a little bit different or more specialized than others. Feel a bit more unique.
 

EC-JP

Scholar
Alliance Rules
As a player (not in an official capacity) I am wholly opposed to this as disproportionalit effecting characters based on their current build when the rule would be implemented.

To explain-
At lower levels, build gain, and thus build recovery, is fairly quick. At higher levels, it slows. What takes a new character a year, takes 3-4 or even more at higher levels.

If you were to apply this now, a higher level character would thus "lose" a significantly higher amount of "time in" compared to a newer one.

In effect, this system would always skew heavily towards "new character" as the build could be spent and recovered easier.

This is further exacerbated by requiring the "optimal" time to do so early. While experienced players may roll new characters, lower level characters are more frequently played by newer players.

Consider- two players start characters at the same event. They each play the same number of events (say 10) and are otherwise identical in experience points. Player A chooses to go this route early (5)where Player B delays a number of events (example 8). By event 10, Playey A would have more experience than player B as his events 6-10 would be as if they were 1-5, where B would gain a lease amount for events 6-8, and then the slower gain from 3 - 5 for events 8-10.

Without fully matching it, my knee jerk is that it would make it strategically advantageous to create a new character, blanket to the point of taking this path, rinse, and repeat at the higher build gain at lower levels.

I am further opposed to anything that gates skills and abilities behind in-game action. There is a reason most chapters give teacher cards for NPCing and that new character generation can take any skill they qualify for. This would disproportionately punish staff members and regular NPCs but artificially delaying use of this option until they appear on stage, at least by the intent I'm seeing in the original post.

JP
 

Lurin

Duke
Please keep this discussion on track (@Draven and @Ruki you are drifting a bit off point)and focus on the deployment design, go ahead and assume there will be something desire able for the character looking at taking a paragon, even if it's not you (yet?)

Questions:
  1. To be clear, you are talking about taking the currently as-proposed Paragon paths and only changing their means of acquisition, but not the Paragon paths themselves (except for some tweaking)?
  2. You mentioned a requirement of "what you need to take the training" ... is that expected to be a set of skills that would need to remain on the character card to maintain the path or are you thinking those skills would be a pre-requisite that could be lost with the sacrificial build?
  3. Is the expectation that PCs would be able to provide the "training" or would it be NPC only training?
  4. Could a Paragon Path be taken multiple times (if for some reason someone wants to do that)?
Comments:
  • I think the idea is interesting. I am not sure I would sacrifice 50-100 build per level for any of the current Paragon paths.
  • This sounds like a potential means of making Shadow Mage / Dragon Mage an actual achievable PC goal, which could be good.
  • Managing the Logistics / Database for these sounds cumbersome.
1.) Correct that basic overall idea is paragons as they are now, tweak in consideration of the new acquisition. This does not mean paragon paths will not be adjusted over all, but to give a starting point.
2.) This is the set of skills you must have on your card, when you decided to take the paragon path. There would be no 'maintenance' skills required after that point.
3.) For this discussion lets assume it's an In between game thing that requires no teacher cards and is readily available to all comers who qualify
4.) The Paths would have the existing X Steps (currently 5) structure. You would not be able to 'double train' any step. There would be no hypothetical limit to paths other than the ever increasing cost for additional paths

Comment response - With the new XP system and lack of XP-> Build point confusion, this actually becomes very easy to modify.

I have a few questions and possibly concerns. The concerns, however, are entirely dependent on if I am actually understanding this proposal correctly (which I am not certain I am).

If I understand correctly, each paragon path still has the same pre-reqs (X build in specific type of skills). Then instead of spending 10 build (or more for multiple path levels), you instead reduce your spent build by that value and then gain the path features.

Question #1: Is the above true?
Question #2: If it is true, do you lose skills that were bought with that build or do you go into debt that must be repaid?
Question #3: Does your level change? (I am guessing yes if you lose the build)
Question #4: Can you buy multiple levels of the path at the same time?
Question #5: If you can buy multiple levels at the same time, do you have to qualify for the path pre-reqs at the moment of the mass purchase or do you check between each purchase to ensure that you still meet the pre-reqs?
Question #6: Can you buy multiple paths at the same time (with the appropriate surcharge)?
Question #7: If you can buy multiple paths at the same time, same question as #5, but in relation to multiple paths?

-MS
1. Each Path will have pre-reqs similar in design to the existing (Given that paragon paths are still in design so to speak), but yes.
2. You would have to (get to?) drop skills to match your new XP total. These would be any skills of your choice as long as the result is legal.
3. Yes for all intents you are your new XP level (APL etc.) This would include for additional build growth going forwards. XP gain would be based on the character at the beginning of the event, NOT the post Paragon revision.
4. Yes, but it would be less efficient to wait obviously
5. At the moment of the mass purchase
6. Sure
7. Same as #5
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
I shouldn't have said "looks/feels", because that comes down to character/flair of each individual.

But in my mind? If you pick any two or three level 20 fighters, odds are they are going to be built very similar. Handful of profs, a couple slays, maybe some disarms/shatters, whatever. It's just kinda blah to me. But paragons give people a chance to branch out from the standard builds... do something a little bit different or more specialized than others. Feel a bit more unique.
Do you feel that weapon selection choices, utility tools like alchemy or legerdemain, and the ability to potentially dabble in spell trees does not currently provide adequate options for character differentiation?

Do you feel that the current Paragon setups does so meaningfully?

How do you feel about the potential for Paragon multi-classing that this thread's proposal would allow for?
 
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