markusdark
Knight
I was wondering if it was ever discussed about making Tracking an actual in-game skill - seperate from OCS. It seems that it has a much heavier impact on games chapter wide than just something to get a couple of silver from.
An actual Tracking skill?
- Thread starter markusdark
- Start date
obcidian_bandit
Count
No.
Very No.
The Tracking OCS exists for no other mechanical purpose then to give PCs silver pieces. It occasionally grants plot, and from time to time it may allow a PC to track an NPC (at plot's discretion). It should never, never, never, ever let a PC or NPC 'track' a PC. Like Scenting, the ritual Vision, some Mind Abilities, and the Truth spell, allowing Tracking to be used against PCs destroys a significant amount of RP and creates significant logistical and plot problems. Why lie, steal, cheat, or commit crimes when any schmuck with one of a half dozen skills (which they may not have even paid build for) grants instant knowledge?
Never worth it.
Very No.
The Tracking OCS exists for no other mechanical purpose then to give PCs silver pieces. It occasionally grants plot, and from time to time it may allow a PC to track an NPC (at plot's discretion). It should never, never, never, ever let a PC or NPC 'track' a PC. Like Scenting, the ritual Vision, some Mind Abilities, and the Truth spell, allowing Tracking to be used against PCs destroys a significant amount of RP and creates significant logistical and plot problems. Why lie, steal, cheat, or commit crimes when any schmuck with one of a half dozen skills (which they may not have even paid build for) grants instant knowledge?
Never worth it.
Mike Ventrella
Duke
It's just impossible to use.
On the last event, we had an encounter in the woods and one of the NPCs ran off during the battle. A PC then came to me after the battle ended and said "I'm using my tracking skill to follow him."
Well, how are we supposed to marshal that? I have no idea where that NPC ran.
On the last event, we had an encounter in the woods and one of the NPCs ran off during the battle. A PC then came to me after the battle ended and said "I'm using my tracking skill to follow him."
Well, how are we supposed to marshal that? I have no idea where that NPC ran.
AllianceCHI
Baron
I agree, keeping it as an OCS skill allows us to say it wont work.... on the other hand, in the instance Mike pointed out.... if he had known where the NPC was... it may have been very cool for him to direct that PC to "track" the NPC to X spot on the site where said NPC was waiting. That of course would have required Mike to know ahead of time.... this time he wasn't able to create an RP situation out of it... maybe next time if said NPC explains that he plans to run to XYZ spot... then the outcome can be different if the plot is meant to allow for it.
markusdark
Knight
No troubles, it was just a thought. I have seen other LARPs use interesting systems.
Oh, and as for the instance that Mike pointed out, you'd just have to have the NPC's have a fall back place - where the bandits/orcs/whatevers usually have as their home base. Just requires a little bit of planning.
Oh, and as for the instance that Mike pointed out, you'd just have to have the NPC's have a fall back place - where the bandits/orcs/whatevers usually have as their home base. Just requires a little bit of planning.
Dreamingfurther
Baron
I like leaving Tracking as a craftsman skill as well. Because like all these folks have said it leaves the control in the hands of plot, and generally speeking that is a good thing. I'm sure everyone is aware how much PC's can mess with things. 
That way you can decide for OOG or IG reasons when it can and can't work. Since you could always just litereally try to track the npc by trying to see a tail of broken sticks or leaves and such... ^_^
(above comment made in the spirit of good natured joking)
That way you can decide for OOG or IG reasons when it can and can't work. Since you could always just litereally try to track the npc by trying to see a tail of broken sticks or leaves and such... ^_^(above comment made in the spirit of good natured joking)
Mike Ventrella
Duke
AllianceCHI said:
Absolutely, which is why we have allowed players to use their skills when there was a pre-arranged thing available for tracking. In certain modules we've allowed it when that was part of the module, of course.
You just can't tell players that it guranatees anything because of situations like I described.
dreadpiratebill
Fighter
The only problem with leaving it a craftsman skill, is that by the rules, the only thing a craftsman skill grants is 1 silver per logistical period. AS per the book:
[This skill is used to add flavor to your character. It cannot be used to give a character any extra power in game nor does it garantee any information from the plot committe,although the plot committe may take it into consideration when distributing information or plot lines.]
This is fuzzy, becasue do we call the ability to follow someone after they have left line of sight an "extra power" or "plot information"? Where do we draw the line? As it stands right now, technicaly, anyone can "try" to track someone, because there is NO IN GAME EQUIVILANT SKILL. Scavenger senting applies to alchemy detection and is nowere linked to an ability to track.
This is "broken" constantly as people by tracker or tracking with the intent to use it to follow people. I have even seen different amounts of the craftsman skill used to different degree's of success, or people being told "they don't have enough ranks".
I for one, belive that if we are going to give players the ability to use a GAME ABILITY to achive the end goal, then it should be an ability, and not a craftsman. If it is to remain a craftsman, then it NEEDS to be specified if it is to be used in this manner.
--bill
Caldaria Rules Marshal
Caldaria Staff
[This skill is used to add flavor to your character. It cannot be used to give a character any extra power in game nor does it garantee any information from the plot committe,although the plot committe may take it into consideration when distributing information or plot lines.]
This is fuzzy, becasue do we call the ability to follow someone after they have left line of sight an "extra power" or "plot information"? Where do we draw the line? As it stands right now, technicaly, anyone can "try" to track someone, because there is NO IN GAME EQUIVILANT SKILL. Scavenger senting applies to alchemy detection and is nowere linked to an ability to track.
This is "broken" constantly as people by tracker or tracking with the intent to use it to follow people. I have even seen different amounts of the craftsman skill used to different degree's of success, or people being told "they don't have enough ranks".
I for one, belive that if we are going to give players the ability to use a GAME ABILITY to achive the end goal, then it should be an ability, and not a craftsman. If it is to remain a craftsman, then it NEEDS to be specified if it is to be used in this manner.
--bill
Caldaria Rules Marshal
Caldaria Staff
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Those are some very good points Bill. Personaly I could agree with the idea of opening up the defintion of Craftsman so that it would be ok for a PC to ask a marshal. "Okay with x level of y on my Card can I tell anything more about this situation?" or "Can I do x because I have y craftsman?" As oposed to needing to wait to be asked for the skill. But as it stands it is quite vauge.
Mike Ventrella
Duke
markusdark said:
True, but if we create the skill, then it has to work when PCs want to track other PCs too, and how do you do that?
Frankly? If you want to track someone, track them. It's a LARP. People have to develop and use lockpicking skills, fighting skills, nunchuk skillz (wait, that's not right).
I have had players use their ocs tracking on occasion, especially using scent in combination. It's a mechanism usable by plot to grant them a little more information if they so desire. If plot doesn't want to give extra information, then nothing is gained. It's that way with just about any OCS skill. Someone have an ocs astrologer? They can get general and vague clues on things (but should not reach the level of a vision scroll). OCS candymaker? Maybe they gain a little extra insight into those mutant candycane trolls.
While I do see where people demanding a strict interpretation of the book are right to say it gains you silver only, I think that, if they are used correctly and in moderation, they can enhance the RP aspects of the game.
I have had players use their ocs tracking on occasion, especially using scent in combination. It's a mechanism usable by plot to grant them a little more information if they so desire. If plot doesn't want to give extra information, then nothing is gained. It's that way with just about any OCS skill. Someone have an ocs astrologer? They can get general and vague clues on things (but should not reach the level of a vision scroll). OCS candymaker? Maybe they gain a little extra insight into those mutant candycane trolls.
While I do see where people demanding a strict interpretation of the book are right to say it gains you silver only, I think that, if they are used correctly and in moderation, they can enhance the RP aspects of the game.
plus the moment it becomes an IG skill all the people who bought it as a craftsman will want at least limited reforges.
I think the definition of craftsman skills should be defined in such a way that it "could" lead to IG or Plot tie ins.. similar to the way that knowledge skills in D&D 3.5 work. you can pick knowledge (anything) and if a situation comes up.. you ask the DM if you could roll off of that skill.. DM then determines if it is appropriate or not.
Our Marshals could determine if the tracking or whatever skill was appropriate and what level needed on a case by case basis. if it is clearly stated that way in the book, there shouldn't be anything to complain about from a PC standpoint.
I think the definition of craftsman skills should be defined in such a way that it "could" lead to IG or Plot tie ins.. similar to the way that knowledge skills in D&D 3.5 work. you can pick knowledge (anything) and if a situation comes up.. you ask the DM if you could roll off of that skill.. DM then determines if it is appropriate or not.
Our Marshals could determine if the tracking or whatever skill was appropriate and what level needed on a case by case basis. if it is clearly stated that way in the book, there shouldn't be anything to complain about from a PC standpoint.
dreadpiratebill
Fighter
The same way we do it for NPC's. First, make the skill only applicable after the 20min in the woods then go oog has applied. If the person is still hiding in game, then tell the player to go find them ingame. In an escape, kidnap, and theft, senerio, we usualy give the instructions go hid in the woods for 20mins, then come back to npc camp outa game. Same thing can go for tracking, as the 20mins before the person comes back is used to "track" the person. Its not instantanious. If the person wants to hide in the woods for hours and hours leading people on a wild goose chance, more power to them, as this is LIVE action.
--bill
PS: My above comments were not ment to flame or anything, just pointing out how the current way it is run in most chappers is a clear violation at worst, at best, a bending of the rules.
**edited cuz I am dyslexic and typed a sentance backwards.
--bill
PS: My above comments were not ment to flame or anything, just pointing out how the current way it is run in most chappers is a clear violation at worst, at best, a bending of the rules.
**edited cuz I am dyslexic and typed a sentance backwards.
Mike Ventrella
Duke
doverman said:
Exactly. What he said. We've used craftman skills in the past to give clues and so on, but it can never guarantee anything.
Fearless Leader said:
"In the muddled chaos after the battle, you can't find a good set of tracks."- IE, if the marshals don't know where the NPC is going, the PC's can't track them. Something like that doesn't have to be (or can be, unless you wanna put radio trackers on everyone
) 100 percent useful.Elsewhere, it's actually pretty nice for mods and the like, as well as cases when you -want- the NPC to be found or to give folks a clue.
"You're able to track the thief towards this old house over here..." (module hook)
"The ogre and orc trail seems to be leading towards this part of the Ash Forest."
"From the looks of things, about a dozen different people ran through here towards the lake."
Mike Ventrella
Duke
Talen said:Fearless Leader said:
"In the muddled chaos after the battle, you can't find a good set of tracks."- IE, if the marshals don't know where the NPC is going, the PC's can't track them. Something like that doesn't have to be (or can be, unless you wanna put radio trackers on everyone
Elsewhere, it's actually pretty nice for mods and the like, as well as cases when you -want- the NPC to be found or to give folks a clue.
"You're able to track the thief towards this old house over here..." (module hook)
"The ogre and orc trail seems to be leading towards this part of the Ash Forest."
"From the looks of things, about a dozen different people ran through here towards the lake."
We can and do all that now with the Craftsman skill.
What we don't want is a skill where a player feels cheated if we can't allow them to use tracking. "I paid build for this skill and I should be able to use it!" is a legitimate complaint.
markusdark
Knight
Fearless Leader said:
Heh, that's funny because what i hear from PC's that have the OCS Tracking when Plot says they can't find anything is "Sheesh, why did I buy this if I can't use it?"
Personally, I don't care - just brought it up for discussion and it should always be what makes the game move/flow easier while not sacrificing the fun of the game.
Mike Ventrella
Duke
I've seen plenty of modules that say "If the player has Craftsman: Tracking then they can find out that the footprints belong to orcs and that there were about six of them and they went that way" or "If the player has Craftsman: Sailing, then they can steer the boat back safely" or "If the player has Craftsman: Undead Lore, they can tell that these undead are related to zombies" and so on.
I love it when Craftsman skills are used like that. In Ashbury, if you have Craftsman skills and submit a plot writeup that uses the skill, you may get more information too. (In other words, someone with Craftsman: Baker will get more information about the mysterious bread golem that is terrorizing the town than someone who doesn't have the skill)
Last event we actually had a module that required someone to have Craftsman: Tracker in order for it to start. My NPC spent quite some time trying to find a PC in game who had it (we finally did).
However, we can't have the players demanding that the skill gives them something when there is nothing prepared for it. I think we make that clear in the book. Players who get upset when we don't or can't provide extra stuff for their Craftsman skills are just not being fair, really. If we can, we will, because it's fun and that's the point of the game -- but often we can't.
And the reason we can't sometimes might have something to do with running the game smoothly too -- if, for instance, we had to allow everyone who demanded it to be able to track every NPC who runs into the woods, the game would die down. "Oh, sorry, we can't do the big wave battle right now because a PC with Craftsman: Tracking is following an NPC and we had to divert all our efforts there instead." I don't want to spend every weekend having to cater to one or two players with specific skills...
It's kind of like the biata mental powers. Can you imagine biata saying "I am going into the mind of this goblin to find out where his encampment is so we can all go there and fight the goblins" at every battle? Or worse yet "I am going into this NPC's mind to find out exactly what the plot is for the weekend so we don't have to figure it out ourselves."
Players need to realize why certain skills have limitations -- and tracking is one of those.
I love it when Craftsman skills are used like that. In Ashbury, if you have Craftsman skills and submit a plot writeup that uses the skill, you may get more information too. (In other words, someone with Craftsman: Baker will get more information about the mysterious bread golem that is terrorizing the town than someone who doesn't have the skill)
Last event we actually had a module that required someone to have Craftsman: Tracker in order for it to start. My NPC spent quite some time trying to find a PC in game who had it (we finally did).
However, we can't have the players demanding that the skill gives them something when there is nothing prepared for it. I think we make that clear in the book. Players who get upset when we don't or can't provide extra stuff for their Craftsman skills are just not being fair, really. If we can, we will, because it's fun and that's the point of the game -- but often we can't.
And the reason we can't sometimes might have something to do with running the game smoothly too -- if, for instance, we had to allow everyone who demanded it to be able to track every NPC who runs into the woods, the game would die down. "Oh, sorry, we can't do the big wave battle right now because a PC with Craftsman: Tracking is following an NPC and we had to divert all our efforts there instead." I don't want to spend every weekend having to cater to one or two players with specific skills...
It's kind of like the biata mental powers. Can you imagine biata saying "I am going into the mind of this goblin to find out where his encampment is so we can all go there and fight the goblins" at every battle? Or worse yet "I am going into this NPC's mind to find out exactly what the plot is for the weekend so we don't have to figure it out ourselves."
Players need to realize why certain skills have limitations -- and tracking is one of those.