Archery Opinions: packet or larp arrow?

David (Daygar) Dickerson

David (Daygar) Dickerson

Newbie
Hello!
So I was talking to some other LARPers who play a different game. They were asking about our archery system and why we don't use LARP arrows and bows etc. I said it was a safety issue and that owners had decided to not have them.

What is your opinion on Alliance starting to use the LARP bows and Arrows?

My opinion: I think switching to a non packet based arrow system has some downsides. Specifically safety and cost. LARP is already a very active and potentially dangerous activity along with a high entry cost. Alliance takes the safety aspect very seriously. If an arrow breaks it is now a dangerous sharp object that can cause terrible injuries. The other issue is cost. At the moment packets are cheap to make and easy to mass produce. Switching the system would require potential archers to have to buy approved arrows etc and if they are lost its no longer a few cents but instead it could amount to a fair bit of cash.
I think to make it work we would have to make archery a better class system. If every shot I take could cost me 5 bucks if the arrow goes missing I want to make sure I do some real damage. Also the loading takes longer than just throwing a packet so again lower rate of fire but higher damage would be critical.
Upsides are pretty simple.....it looks cool and people would for sure know when you hit them at night.
Personally I do not think it is worth the change.

What are your thoughts?
 
Packet Archery is:
  • Not a barrier to new players / low income players. The pretend bow and birdseed packets can be made cheaply, easily, and en mass.
    • This allows for a player to have many packets and not be concerned if the lose a few.
  • Easier to carry. Smaller bows/crossbows in addition to a handful of ball-shaped objects are less of a hindrance to maneuvering.
  • Fast. Throwing a packet does not require pulling a draw string.
  • Used at close-ish distance. I don't know many people that are accurate with packets at 30+ feet away.
  • Unlikely to become a hazard when the props fail.
  • Requires greater suspension of disbelief.
Boffer Archery is:
  • Harder / more expensive to manufacture
    • I made home-made boffer arrows once. In my opinion, they were better than the professionally made ones because they were softer, but there was a steep learning curve on making them. And each arrow cost a chunk of money to make
    • I only made 6, so not being able to find one had an impact on my time, wallet, and later battle capability
  • Harder to carry. Yes, they were in my quiver, but running with a bunch of 2ft sticks (or however long they are) is awkward, which impacted maneuverability.
  • Slow. I can throw 5 packets in the time it took me to fire two boffer arrows
  • Used for mid-range, approximately 20ft-40ft. Closer than that and you risk being a safety concern, further away sacrifices accuracy, which could be a safety concern.
  • Can become a hazard if it fails in flight. Between becoming a sharp aluminum stick, or a more concentrated blunt tip, or suddenly fly erratically in a random direction, there were many ways for the arrow to fail that could present a hazard. Also, if someone steps on an arrow and breaks it, then another person falls on it (for whatever reason), it presents yet another hazard.
  • Cooler looking. Requires less suspension of disbelief.
Personally, overall, I like boffer archery because it looks cooler and feels less anachronistic. But, it's hard to argue with all the benefits packet archery gives.

Caveat: This is all my opinion. :) Don't take it as fact.
 
The main thing with having boffer style archery in a game system like this is damage output. Many creatures require dozens if not hundreds of hits to be taken down. the packet style archery allows an archer to be put on par with damage output on level with other combat skills. It's just easier with the number of packets that can be carried, thrown down range and so on.
 
Anyone try the Zing! Brand bows and arrows? We used them in another LARP I’ve played and they were fairly effective and flew far.
 
Packet all the way. We don't require face or eye protection, and do a lot of fighting in bad light and semi-controlled falling down on battlefields. All it takes is one arrow that's been damaged by being stepped on being picked up and reused to introduce a chance for a serious injury. Or someone falling forward onto one that's resting with the knock upward.

I'm not even a big fan of packet bows because mechanical advantage on a packet can get out of hand real fast.
 
Hello everyone - i happend to have this forum saved [for curiosity and to follow the US larp scene] when i saw this come and registered to offer a perspective from a UK based Larper.

Compared to you we tend to use normal training bows [no more than 30lbs of pull] and fire wooden [or fiberglass] arrows. While yes i agree that there is always a risk of breakage Archers are required to check any arrows [inspecting the shafts and arrowheads] beofre use - if the arrows feel unsafe the archer is required to drop the arrows and [if possible] hand them over to a ref for disposal.

As for the contruction of the arrows a will quote the Curious pastimes projectile missiles reglations from Curious pastimes [they are similar to the other larp groups in requirements]
[link - http://curiouspastimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Curious-Pastimes-projectiles-regulations-July-2016.pdf ]
Bows
All bows must have a draw weight of 13.6kg (30lbs) or less, at the users draw length. If the bow has
replaceable limbs, these must be fibreglass and not composite. No bow may have any mechanism for
adjusting the draw weight once the limbs are attached. Bowstring nocks must be sound, showing no signs
of cracking or splitting. It is important to note that no matter how a bow is constructed, if it is judged by
the weapon checking team to fire an arrow too hard and fast it will be disallowed.
Crossbows
All crossbows should have a draw weight of 13.6kg (30lbs) or less at full draw.
Missiles
• All missiles, be they arrows or bolts, must have a suitable head constructed and attached for
maximum safety. The impact surface of the head must be larger than an eye socket, (50mm (2
inches) is a good size), and must be securely attached to the shaft so that it cannot accidentally be
removed.
• The arrow/bolt shaft must be blunt and not have a metal head. Shafts should be made of POC or a
suitable alternative such as the fibreglass shafts specifically made for archery. All shafts must be
properly flighted, and all arrows must have a proper nock securely attached. Aluminium shafts are
not allowed, and we strongly advise the use of fibreglass, rather than wood shafts. Carbon fibre
arrow shafts are not suitable for use.

500px-Arrow2_zpsjlzo6wvq.png



• Missile heads must be constructed to contain a layer of strong material over the end of the shaft, so
as to prevent it working its way through the foam. Thick leather, thick rubber etc. are suitable for
this. The impact surface of the arrow/bolt must be padded with at least 25mm (1 inch) of highdensity
foam, measured from the tip of the shaft. This must be backed in such a way that it cannot
become separated from the shaft. All arrow shafts should be a maximum of 74 cm (29 inches) long,
measured from the nock to the start of the head. The head of the shaft must be circular in section,
not square or octagonal. If arrows are not circular in section they do not fly straight enough.
• It is recommended that all missiles are ‘over fletched’ (i.e. use larger than normal fletchings), as this
increases stability and accuracy in flight by compensating for the over sized LRP arrow-head.
• Arrows will be judged unsafe if a weapon checker is unsure as to their suitability, they are
potentially very dangerous, and any customer or trader constructing their own should consider
bringing a sample head for the weapon checkers to cut open and inspect.
Click to expand...

for more infromation please refer to the following rules from the othe lrp event organisers
-lorien trusts Weapons and Armour Construction Guidelines[bows and arrows begin on page 9]
[https://www.lorientrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Weapons-Check-Guidelines.pdf?x61695]

-profound decisions empire lrp rules on larp arrows adn bows
[https://www.profounddecisions.co.uk/empire-wiki/Bow_safety ]

Finally as well as all arrows and bows must be checked by a wewapons checker prior to them being signed off for use the archer themself will [in the case of many of our bigger LARP events such as the lorien trusts "the gathering, Curious astimes "renewal" and pround decisions "Empire"] require a mandatory bow competency test [or bow comp] that tests the users knowledge of regulations and bow safety and gages their ability at handling a bow - if they proven sensible they willbe issued a bow comp card that will allow hem to use their bow at the events HOWEVER:
1] they must have the card with them at all time while at the event, and be able to present it to a referee when asked for it.
2] if, after gaining the card then proceed to violate the saftey rules they cane have the card revoked and be asked [in extreme cases] to leave the event.
3] the card will only be valid for a few years, requiring he user to retake the test to aquire a new card.

As this post is getting a TAD long ill leave it here and quote and awnser people coments in the next post.
 
markusdark said:
The main thing with having boffer style archery in a game system like this is damage output. Many creatures require dozens if not hundreds of hits to be taken down. the packet style archery allows an archer to be put on par with damage output on level with other combat skills
Click to expand...

David (Daygar) Dickerson said:
I think to make it work we would have to make archery a better class system. If every shot I take could cost me 5 bucks if the arrow goes missing I want to make sure I do some real damage.
Click to expand...

This idea would obviously require rulings fro higher up but in UK larp our arrows while, slow i flight can bipass armour and cause the damage to go directly to the opponents body.
Aditionally in the Lorie trusts "gathering" lrp there is the ability to cause status effects [such as halt - target is paralysed for a set amount of time upon sucessful hits with an arrow. Also theres always the option to poison a bolt or arrow.

Muir said:
Packet all the way. We don't require face or eye protection, and do a lot of fighting in bad light and semi-controlled falling down on battlefields. All it takes is one arrow that's been damaged by being stepped on being picked up and reused to introduce a chance for a serious injury.
Click to expand...
all valid reasons
Firstly the need for eye protection - as noted above the arrows we used are designed so that the arrow head is too large to enter the eyesocket. nonethe less archers are trained, as part of the bow comp, NEVER TO DELIBERATLEY AIM THE THE HEAD, ONLY THE BODY. Failure to do this can result in loss of bow comp and and potential expullsion from the event.
As for bad light generally the use of projectile weapons is banned after nightfall [generally about 8:30 -9pm]to prevent accidents.

If i can help i awnsering any other questions relating to larp archery i am at your service.
 
No matter where you deliberately aim, face shots happen. Our fighting style, due to being a game that rarely involves heavy armor and whose weapons are as close to weightless as possible, has a lot of mobility, which leads to a lot of people's heads not being where they were when you started throwing a blow. Much less when you shot an arrow with a second or so of flight time.

Also, the worry isn't the arrowhead, it's that arrows are double ended sticks and the heavy end (the head) will tend to go downwards putting the small, unpadded end most likely to be facing up.
 
I think there are plenty of LARPs that use boffer arrows safely and it works out just fine. The worry about poking your eye out is one that I believe strongly is a LarpMyth. Regardless, there are many balance reasons why we are a packet based system LARP. I just don't see changing that culturelly as many people have brought it up in the past.
 
You are much more likely to take a serious injury at a larp from the terrain and environment around you than you are from a larp arrow. They are used extensively in European countries with the gambit of heavy plate to no armor and they have no major issues with them. Injuries do happen but they are of the same variety as one would encounter with any larp melee weapon.
 
I’ve taken a LARP arrow to the face from a person who had no business using a real bow. I wear glasses, and it was pretty terrible.

Face shots happen in melee, too, but it’s less likely to occur. Additionally, the range for even 30 lb bows is longer, which makes verbal calls really difficult at the further parts of range. Most LARPs that use real bows have flat damage, Alliance will never be that game.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but the day where we have real bows in Alliance is the day I walk away.
 
Draven said:
I can’t speak for anyone else, but the day where we have real bows in Alliance is the day I walk away.
Click to expand...

When I started nero in the mid 90s they used real bows. I can say I much prefer packet bows from a safety standpoint. Packet bows are more effective, safer (boffers not wood or metal) and more budget friendly. Adding back in real bows is all risk without any real reward.
 
Tantarus said:
When I started nero in the mid 90s they used real bows. I can say I much prefer packet bows from a safety standpoint. Packet bows are more effective, safer (boffers not wood or metal) and more budget friendly. Adding back in real bows is all risk without any real reward.
Click to expand...

Real reward? How about that it looks efing awesome. To see a boffer arrow flying though the air is a great site. I miss those days. There was usually only one or two players ay an event that used em but it looked great and totally helped "set the stage"
 
I played in those same games as David, and I disagree with how cool it looked. At least half the time, the arrow wobbled sadly through the air, before (all too often) being easily deflected (I did it with a dagger once).

But, honestly, whether it looked cool or not, it was mechanically inferior to every other weapon option in the game. And I say this despite arrows having a base damage of 5 at that point and despite the fact that I used a dagger to fight. An archer was lucky if they could hold six arrows in their quiver. And the time to nock and fire a single arrow was an eternity. Even with the logs (non-ultralite weapons) that everyone was using at that point in time, the average weapon user could swing a weapon 4-5 times (maybe more) by the time that arrow was released and usually had a better hit percentage than the archer. If very lucky, an archer might deal 15 - 20 damage in a fight. A fighter swinging 2 normal could easily double or triple that in the same time. The comparison just got worse as the static bonus from proficiency damage outweighed the base damage of the weapons.

-MS
 
So your saying that it represented a real bow AND slowed down combat? It was a head of its time...as for batting it down mid air, isn't that a safety issue too? A full swing with force and they also risk damaging the arrow it self.
 
Gilwing said:
So your saying that it represented a real bow AND slowed down combat? It was a head of its time...as for batting it down mid air, isn't that a safety issue too? A full swing with force and they also risk damaging the arrow it self.
Click to expand...

You’re drastically misquoting him to make your point, and that’s pretty disingenuous. He’s saying it was a slow form of attack. It didn’t slow combat at all, only that particular participant.

As a weapon attack, parrying an arrow is part of the game. If people don’t want their valuable arrows to get damaged by weapons, that’s only further evidence that they have no place in Alliance.
 
Draven said:
As a weapon attack, parrying an arrow is part of the game. If people don’t want their valuable arrows to get damaged by weapons, that’s only further evidence that they have no place in Alliance.
Click to expand...

Well that's not showing sportsmanship. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Also I'd argue that it's against the rules to forcefully smack a weapon away. Also again, it becomes dangerous (and dangerous stuff is always against our rules).

And no I'm not being "disingenuous". Sorry not at all was I "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does". It was a bit of tongue-in-cheek and Mike S, the one that I was replying to knows me.
 
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