Disarm/Shatter Strike Clarification

Gandian Ravenscroft

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
ARB 2.0 final - v0.12a.docx page 10 said:
Disarm: Note that if this effect is delivered via the Weapon qualifier, no target may be called and only the target which is struck will be affected. If it is an invalid target for a Disarm (such as an item which is not held in the hand) the object will remain unaffected.
ARB 2.0 final - v0.12a.docx page 11 said:
Shatter: Note that a target must be called even if this effect is delivered via the Weapon qualifier.
ARB 2.0 final - v0.12a.docx page 12 said:
- The Shatter and Disarm Strike type weapon skills can now Shatter or Disarm a shield by striking it and calling it as the target
ARB 2.0 final - v0.12a.docx page 24 said:
Shatter/Disarm Strike [Gripbreaker Strike] - 3 XP (Fighter), 20 XP Martial Skills per purchase, Daily – the character may, once per Logistics period per purchase, swing once with the call “Weapon Strike Shatter <target>” or “Weapon Strike Disarm <target>”.
See the above. It seems there is some confusing and conflicting information in the Prerelease packet about the usage of Disarm and Shatter. So, let's get this hammered out:

1. Do I specify a target when using Shatter/Disarm Strike, regardless of what I hit with my weapon (per page 24)?
2. Do I NOT specify a target when using Disarm Strike and only affect what I hit with my weapon (per page 10)?
3. Do I need to both specify a target and hit that target with my weapon when using Shatter/Disarm Strike (per page 12)?

I've got a feeling something here is carryover text from a previous version, but I'm not sure which part's the carryover and what the final intent was to be. :)
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
Page 10 is out of date, it got missed from a previous version. When calling Shatter/Disarm with a weapon, you:

(a) need to call your target item
(b) need to connect with your target, which is made much easier if you have the Strike keyword attached

Note that the PC skill gives the Strike keyword automatically, but Monster attacks might not.

Hope this helps!

-Bryan
 

Gandian Ravenscroft

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Thanks Bryan!

However, is there a rationale for keeping the “must hit the target” requirement, now that the target is specifically spoken in the verbal? I feel as though this creates an exception for Weapon-delivered Disarm and Shatter that does not apply to any other effect and will cause confusion regarding Strikes and how they function.

Consider:

- I hit someone’s back with a “Spell Strike Disarm Shield”. They take the Disarm Shield effect.

- I hit someone’s back with an “Arcane Strike Disarm Shield”. They take the Disarm Shield effect.

- I hit someone’s back with a “Poison Strike Disarm Shield” (for whatever reason). They take the Disarm Shield effect.

- I hit someone’s back with a “Weapon Strike <any non-Disarm/Shatter effect>” . They take the <any non-Disarm/Shatter effect> effect.

- I hit someone’s back with a “Weapon Strike Disarm/Shatter Shield”. They do NOT take the Disarm/Shatter Shield effect since I did not hit their shield.

The requirement for Disarm/Shatter Strikes to hit their target is an unnecessary exception to the Strike rules, which indicate that a Strike attack should be treated in all ways as if it had been a packet-delivered attack. If the 2.0 ruleset is to eliminate exceptions and make the ruleset more universally consistent for comprehension, I feel that this needs to be removed.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I think you either need to land the blow (it's not blocked by a shield or weapon) or hit the weapon or shield and call it. That way if I block it with my shield and you called shatter shield it gets shattered. Unless I'm totally wrong.
 

Kinen

Newbie
*Adjusts newb hat* (feel free to correct) :3

Seems like you are targeting the object to disarm/shatter, not the person. So the effect is targeting the object, clarified with verbal. Where as other spells and strikes target the person, and not object, as a valid target. If you hit the correct target, the object, the effect takes. You hit the person, not a valid target, it fizzles. (and you must meditate on what you've done.)

So then hitting a weapon/shield/handheld item you want to disarm, it is still targeting the object. The call is to further clarify the intended subject is the held object and NOT the person, which is the norm. Then, the person can still use their own defenses and spell defenses to circumvent that effect.

So it seems this is pointedly to get around the current norm of spells and strike normally targeting people and clarifying the target with verbal. I have played other games with this feature and it does cut down on confusion.

Say I was a big-bad NPC and 5 people are hitting me. But one clever fighter is trying to remove my GREAT SWORD OF ULTIMATE EVIL, as it probably would be a good idea. Me, still being hit by 5 people, in the weapons as I block and to my person. The clarification of that sword strike I just blocked was ACTUALLY targeting the weapon, does not add more confusion but cuts through it.
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
Page 10 is out of date, it got missed from a previous version. When calling Shatter/Disarm with a weapon, you:

(a) need to call your target item
(b) need to connect with your target, which is made much easier if you have the Strike keyword attached

Note that the PC skill gives the Strike keyword automatically, but Monster attacks might not.

Hope this helps!

-Bryan
I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this but I assume it's got something to do with limitations of physical deliveries. So...

If I'm using a Weapon Strike Disarm Shield, which statement is true?
  1. Physical delivery against a properly-wielded shield is not valid, so the Strike is the only way this action can possibly work without first depriving the target of game skills.
  2. Strike means the attack can land anywhere and still disarm the target that was named.
If I'm an unlucky monster using Weapon Disarm Shield, which statement is true?
  1. I can never disarm a weapon or shield that is properly wielded unless I combo it with an Enfeeble or something, but could still disarm Sources or other objects.
  2. Other???
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this but I assume it's got something to do with limitations of physical deliveries. So...

If I'm using a Weapon Strike Disarm Shield, which statement is true?
  1. Physical delivery against a properly-wielded shield is not valid, so the Strike is the only way this action can possibly work without first depriving the target of game skills.
  2. Strike means the attack can land anywhere and still disarm the target that was named.
If I'm an unlucky monster using Weapon Disarm Shield, which statement is true?
  1. I can never disarm a weapon or shield that is properly wielded unless I combo it with an Enfeeble or something, but could still disarm Sources or other objects.
  2. Other???
Disarm works the same no matter what. If you throw a disarm spell and call an item, it's not expected you hit the item. It's expected you connect validly with the person. Weapon delivery doesn't change this. But, it does change what counts as a valid hit.

Bryan was saying that if someone had a weapon disarm NOT weaponstrike disarm, they would have to land a valid hit on the person. IE get around their weapons.

Weaponstrike allows you to land a valid hit on weapons in addition to the body.

Another way to look at this is if some monster had a disarm carrier. They swing 10 disarm sword.
You'd expect that they'd still need to hit you in a valid way (let's ignore armor for the example). If they hit you you'd drop the item the announced.


If you reread his post, keep in mind target != target item. The player is the target. (That is very confusing using target so much)
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
If you reread his post, keep in mind target != target item. The player is the target. (That is very confusing using target so much)
Ahhh, that helps. I think part of the confusion is that Disarm and Shatter are very similar in how they are used in combat, but Shatter can be used on things that aren't in a creature's possession, which makes the item feel like the logical target, and the portrayer as just a convenient large mass to hit with the packet. Using different words here (or more explicit scoping) would probably help when describing these in the book. "target item" vs "target" vs "item's wielder"
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
Chris has it right. "Target" is the person you are aiming at. "Target item" is the thing you are announcing.

-Bryan
 

Gandian Ravenscroft

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Yeah, the "target" versus "target item" verbiage was where I got confused. To confirm:

- A Weapon Strike Disarm/Shatter specifies an ITEM in its call and need hit anywhere on the TARGET PERSON to take effect, including weapons/shield/etc. It does NOT need to specifically hit the ITEM (but certainly can).
- A Weapon Disarm/Shatter specifies an ITEM in its call and must hit the TARGET PERSON'S body per a normal weapon attack (and can blocked with weapons/shield/etc., even if the specified to-be-Disarmed/Shattered ITEM is the weapon/shield in question).
- There is no time that it is a requirement to specifically hit the ITEM.

In short, can we remove all references to hitting the ITEM so as to eliminate any confusion regarding the old ruling that you need to hit the ITEM rather than the TARGET PERSON? :)
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
Yeah, the "target" versus "target item" verbiage was where I got confused. To confirm:

- A Weapon Strike Disarm/Shatter specifies an ITEM in its call and need hit anywhere on the TARGET PERSON to take effect, including weapons/shield/etc. It does NOT need to specifically hit the ITEM (but certainly can).
Yes! This is exactly like the spell

- A Weapon Disarm/Shatter specifies an ITEM in its call and must hit the TARGET PERSON'S body per a normal weapon attack (and can blocked with weapons/shield/etc., even if the specified to-be-Disarmed/Shattered ITEM is the weapon/shield in question).
Yes.

- There is no time that it is a requirement to specifically hit the ITEM.
Yes
 

JeffL

Newbie
Denver Staff
This was some excellent clarifying!

I hope we don't see many swings of "Weapon Disarm <sword/sheild>" out in the game... I suspect it will cause confusion when we do.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I feel like the Strike keyword description helps answer this, too, especially the last example:
An explicit keyword has been added, Strike, which allows a Physical delivery to use the packet targeting rules for that attack only. This will be familiar for players who used “Spellstrikes” before and works exactly the same way. The Strike keyword can be added to any qualifier attack now, not just Spell qualifier, and is announced directly after the qualifier in an attack verbal. For example, a character may swing “Spell Strike Prison” and affect the target with a Spell Prison even if they hit the target’s shield; the target may of course call any applicable defenses. For clarity, if a Strike attack uses the Weapon qualifier, it must explicitly announce the Weapon qualifier with the attack.

For Example: Sarah has several interesting skills and rituals. She comes up to Beatrice and swings for “10 Normal”. Beatrice blocks, taking no damage. Sarah then activates a skill and swings again with her poisoned dagger for “10 Poison Strike Sleep”, hitting Beatrice’s shield again. This time Beatrice takes the damage since the Strike keyword was included. If the attack goes through her armor, she will have to contend with the Poison Sleep effect.

For Example: Targa has purchased “Shatter/Disarm Strike”, a Martial Skill that allows them to try to Shatter or Disarm an enemy once per Logistics period. Targa comes up on Beatrice, who’s now using a two-handed sword, and uses the skill to swing with the call “Weapon Strike Shatter Sword”, striking Beatrice’s weapon. Beatrice must call a defense against the attack or her sword will be shattered; even though she blocked the attack it came with the Strike keyword attached meaning she must resolve it as though it had struck her. Note that Targa must call the “Weapon” qualifier even though it’s normally implied since this attack does not have a number attached to it; i.e. it is not a Carrier attack.
 
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