Earth Casters in 2.0

Should Earth Casters be primarily healing-focused?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • Other - Posting description.

    Votes: 6 20.7%

  • Total voters
    29

Draven

Count
Should Earth Casters have effective combat options that don't center on Healing? Or should they be Healing first, everything else second?

I'm curious as to the views of others, particularly non-Earth caster players.
 
The rules should support multiple ways to build an (at least semi-)effective character of each class.

Personally, I think 0.9 makes it so you can actually play a "pure" healer, where you could not before.
 
I'm a bit torn, honestly.

On one hand, the addition of Cleanse and stronger Cure spells at each level mean you can take more control effects and curses and still be about on par with how much healing/removal you can pack now.

On the other, Hearty becomes a large drain on healing resources after only one or two purchases on one character, so if enough people take it your E-Casters end up having to take more healing spells just so everyone is at or near full Body Points after every fight.

At this point, to me, it feels like E-Casters only get shafted if other players shaft them by accident.

For disclosure, I currently play a Potion-focused E-Caster, and my opinions above are formed by both playing my own character and discussions with a column-only E-Caster after our two playtests this cycle.

ETA: I've said it elsewhere more verbosely, but I'll repeat it again here just for the sake of having done so: my opinion is that E-Casters are kind of like the traditional "White Mage" archetype in other games; going full E-Caster is a tradeoff of being able to heal at the cost of offensive ability, so I think it's perfectly fine if their combat ability is lackluster outside of control and defensive abilities.
 
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I know it is not in line with how Alliance is currently structured, but my personal perspective is that classes other than Earth Scholars, Earth Templars and Earth Adepts should have access to non-production based healing within their own classes' skill trees. This healing would be nowhere near as competitive as the aforementioned three classes, and would be more limited in availability. This healing could also be self-only, or restricted to use only when at or below a certain body total, not to exceed a particular threshold.

Earth Casters, on their end, should also have viable offensive options, to include damaging spells against things other than undead. This damage would be nowhere near as competitive as that of Celestial Casters, and would be more limited in availability.

I feel that this diversification would assist in spreading the burden of healing, while still allowing Earth Casters to excel beyond the performance levels of other classes if the Earth Caster chose to focus on healing.

This precedent exists across tabletop and MMO games, and is a key facilitator in enabling diverse group compositions.
 
While nothing inherently wrong with any of the spells or the bulk of the system, I am strongly of the opinion that Earth should just baseline get the ability to drop any memorized spell for healing of that level. This would be, imo, the buff equivalent to Celestial having wands, without increasing available potential healing.
 
I do not believe that any class should be expected to exist purely to support the gameplay of others. The stance of Earth being healing-focused-primarily does just that. If someone *wants* to play a character that way, that's fine, however having something written as an expectation for others to pay-for-other's-enjoyment seems hugely disrespectful of those players who have attempted to do anything other than "Sit in the corner and heal me" over time.
 
I do not believe that any class should be expected to exist purely to support the gameplay of others. The stance of Earth being healing-focused-primarily does just that. If someone *wants* to play a character that way, that's fine, however having something written as an expectation for others to pay-for-other's-enjoyment seems hugely disrespectful of those players who have attempted to do anything other than "Sit in the corner and heal me" over time.

Perhaps, I'm interpreting you incorrectly, but the earth spell list, in this version anyways, doesn't seem to do that.

You can pick spells from 1st to 9th, not take a single healing spell and be impactful in combat.

I do think, however, that there should be some form of earth-based "something" that is comparable to the celestial wands, but other than a horribly broken healing wand, I'm lacking in ideas.
 
I'm not referencing spells-available. Every "buff" to Earth has been to the "Yeah, but Necromancy is terrible, and see how much more healing you have?".

While the removal of per-day magical effects can certainly be seen as a "buff" to Earth casters -- their spells are more valuable now -- it is also causing the likely "expected" spell memorization of "Heal me, no one else can."
 
I'm not referencing spells-available. Every "buff" to Earth has been to the "Yeah, but Necromancy is terrible, and see how much more healing you have?".

While the removal of per-day magical effects can certainly be seen as a "buff" to Earth casters -- their spells are more valuable now -- it is also causing the likely "expected" spell memorization of "Heal me, no one else can."

No one is forcing earth casters to memorize healing.

If you want to make sure you have it, get your own, spend build on it directly (through spells, potion making or alchemy), buy potions/elixirs (support your local crafters!) or find someone who wants to fill that role.

I fail to see how the "expectations" of how you choose your spells should have any impact on how you choose your spells.
 
Earth/Chaos Wand?

Call: "<Damage> Harm/Help Undead"

Prerequisite: Healing arts
Damage= Total build spent on Earth Scholarly skills (First Aid, Healing Arts, Create Potion, Earth Spells, and Earth Formal Magic) divided by 50, rounded down.
Charges =Total build spent on Earth Scholarly skills (First Aid, Healing Arts, Create Potion, Earth Spells, and Earth Formal Magic) divided by 3, rounded down.
 
No one is forcing earth casters to memorize healing.

If you want to make sure you have it, get your own, spend build on it directly (through spells, potion making or alchemy), buy potions/elixirs (support your local crafters!) or find someone who wants to fill that role.

I fail to see how the "expectations" of how you choose your spells should have any impact on how you choose your spells.

Your mileage may vary seems a very apt thing to keep in mind, when speaking on how individual experience occurs across a continent-spanning organization, so please keep that in mind when phrasing your replies as this can come across very talk-down-y.

Earth/Chaos Wand?

Call: "<Damage> Harm/Help Undead"

Prerequisite: Healing arts
Damage= Total build spent on Earth Scholarly skills (First Aid, Healing Arts, Create Potion, Earth Spells, and Earth Formal Magic) divided by 50, rounded down.
Charges =Total build spent on Earth Scholarly skills (First Aid, Healing Arts, Create Potion, Earth Spells, and Earth Formal Magic) divided by 3, rounded down.

In a rule-set that claims to be all about standardization/ease of play, I haven't actually seen a compelling argument not to copy the Wand system, wholesale, from Celestial -> Earth, or simply "Scholar" in general (You know, the same as Fighter-abilities, Rogue-abilities, etc.) other than the semantics of "I'm uncomfortable calling it an earth wand". If Healing/Chaos were even the only two "carriers" for this, I maintain it would be plenty balanced and still see a nod of acknowledgement to the folks who elect to go dual-school Scholar.
 
Your mileage may vary seems a very apt thing to keep in mind, when speaking on how individual experience occurs across a continent-spanning organization, so please keep that in mind when phrasing your replies as this can come across very talk-down-y.

So, you have seen people bullying others into selecting their spells?

The point I was making, regardless of your physical location playing the game, is that spell selection is up to the player selecting them and not another person.
 
Earth/Chaos Wand?

Call: "<Damage> Harm/Help Undead"

Prerequisite: Healing arts
Damage= Total build spent on Earth Scholarly skills (First Aid, Healing Arts, Create Potion, Earth Spells, and Earth Formal Magic) divided by 50, rounded down.
Charges =Total build spent on Earth Scholarly skills (First Aid, Healing Arts, Create Potion, Earth Spells, and Earth Formal Magic) divided by 3, rounded down.

I'd rather see something using just the earth(healing)/chaos carriers.
 
So, you have seen people bullying others into selecting their spells?

Yes.

Edit:

Maybe "bully" is strong, "strongly encourage in order to be considered useful" is more accurate.
 
So, you have seen people bullying others into selecting their spells?

The point I was making, regardless of your physical location playing the game, is that spell selection is up to the player selecting them and not another person.
Bullying, no, however "selective" invitation and/or possible "disappointed" review directed towards those that don't memorize "as they would be expected to do so". It isn't huge or pervasive right now, as those who make off-the-cuff derisive comments *now* are the same ones who make sure they have a pocket-scholar to keep them standing via magic items, and will be more likely to elevate those comments to above-mumble levels in the future.

Oft-times, based off my own experiences on each coast and a couple places between, the "healer" archetype in game is from those who are more emphatic out of game. They're more likely to give up some of their game so that others enjoy theirs more. Yes, the character/player selects the spell, but that's flavored by how the same feels, and is influenced by others who also play. Providing a potential for pigeon-holing of roles makes their gameplay even worse, as they are likely to sacrifice a bit more, then a bit more, and eventually they're playing just so that others can enjoy the game.

That's a terrible proposition to stomach, and something that a number seem to think is impossible to even occur.

I'd rather see something using just the earth(healing)/chaos carriers.
Its minimal, now, however with the surge towards "All healing, every level" being a possible memorization method, coupled in with splitting of effects like Life and Death, a still missing equal-ish option to Wands (No, Earth/Chaos isn't ideal, but even that seems to be "too much" for some parties).
 
Bullying, no, however "selective" invitation and/or possible "disappointed" review directed towards those that don't memorize "as they would be expected to do so". It isn't huge or pervasive right now, as those who make off-the-cuff derisive comments *now* are the same ones who make sure they have a pocket-scholar to keep them standing via magic items, and will be more likely to elevate those comments to above-mumble levels in the future.

Oft-times, based off my own experiences on each coast and a couple places between, the "healer" archetype in game is from those who are more emphatic out of game. They're more likely to give up some of their game so that others enjoy theirs more. Yes, the character/player selects the spell, but that's flavored by how the same feels, and is influenced by others who also play. Providing a potential for pigeon-holing of roles makes their gameplay even worse, as they are likely to sacrifice a bit more, then a bit more, and eventually they're playing just so that others can enjoy the game.

That's a terrible proposition to stomach, and something that a number seem to think is impossible to even occur.


Its minimal, now, however with the surge towards "All healing, every level" being a possible memorization method, coupled in with splitting of effects like Life and Death, a still missing equal-ish option to Wands (No, Earth/Chaos isn't ideal, but even that seems to be "too much" for some parties).
Yeah, wait until Life and Death are split.
(This was tried about 20 years ago and was quickly reversed do to player complaint.)
Players giving other players crap because they decided to take Death instead of Life...
 
Yeah, wait until Life and Death are split.
(This was tried about 20 years ago and was quickly reversed do to player complaint.)
Players giving other players crap because they decided to take Death instead of Life...

Yep. We already see people get grief for throwing Death vs saving it for Life, I can only imagine what this change will result in, especially if Owners/ARC/Plot teams latch onto the poorly defined Corrupt spell.
 
Yeah, wait until Life and Death are split.
(This was tried about 20 years ago and was quickly reversed do to player complaint.)
Players giving other players crap because they decided to take Death instead of Life...

Absolutely going to happen. And man, if someone (especially a "cool kid") takes a resurrection "because of their bad choice," there's almost certainly going to be social repercussions over it.
 
I've not seen this in the half dozen or so chapters that I've played, but apparently those chapters when I've played them is seemingly the only time it hasn't happened.

So, why is it allowed to continue?

Perhaps this needs to get moved somewhere else, but this seems less like a rules issue and more like a people issue.

If your concern is that the rules might let people be assholes, why is the focus not on making it awkward for people to be assholes instead of trying to minimize rule situations that might give them the opportunity?
 
Let celestial have wands... give earth flexibility. Problems with culture, power, and any myriad of others solved.

There's a reason d&d made this change years ago for clerics...
 
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