Earth Celestial balance

AlikVanmil

Newbie
Completely agree. Celestial Armor now being cheaper and being able to go up to 40 is a significant boon for Celestial formal. It is more useful than the Earth equivalent of Earth's Bounty.

Although, Celestial does not have a 1:1 to Rebirth, yet. But I am not certain if Celestial needs one since Celestial already has more valuable Elemental Burst vs. Healer's Resolve on top of more valuable Celestial Armor vs. Earth's Bounty, not to mention Celestialists getting Wands effectively for free.
What they should put in is "Earth aspect wands." But instead of it having damage charges it has healing charges. No joke... they should really put this in.

EDIT: It doesn't even have to be a wand if they want to keep it a celestial only thing. It could be like a "Totem" with Xnumber of healing charges per day = to spell slots.
 
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Mechanically I'd like to see something like allowing Earth casters to create a 'voice radius' style heal x number of times as a High Magic. Consider it something close to D&D's healing bursts, good for both healing friends and damaging undead.

That'd be a game changer similar to wands, while still keeping to the support/healing role that Earth seems more dedicated to.
 
Mechanically I'd like to see something like allowing Earth casters to create a 'voice radius' style heal x number of times as a High Magic. Consider it something close to D&D's healing bursts, good for both healing friends and damaging undead.

That'd be a game changer similar to wands, while still keeping to the support/healing role that Earth seems more dedicated to.

That's a really cool idea, but that still only limits it to high level characters. Celestial casters can start using wands from lvl1. With all the talk of balancing the game, there isn't really much in the way of balancing Celestial and Earth as of yet. With the exception of both schools now having a signature spell every level. (I.E X Bolt and X Healing)
 
Mechanically, I'd really like to see rather than having to memorize generic healing, earth casters could drop whatever spell they memorized at a given level for a healing spell of the same. It would really change the way earth gets played.
 
Mechanically, I'd really like to see rather than having to memorize generic healing, earth casters could drop whatever spell they memorized at a given level for a healing spell of the same. It would really change the way earth gets played.

Agreed. Likely too late to get anything new into the game at this point... but new rules flavors have sparked new ideas:

I think that any spell should be able to be converted to "signature spells" of that same level. Prep all Binding by accident for "immune to binding day?" never fear... as those misplaces spells can now become your "signature spell".

This could also create more memorization diversity as the lesser used spells suddenly get put in, with the intention to be converted to the signature spell, but if push comes to shove you have a spare <something> in your limited arsenal.

This buffs both sides.


I'm against earth "wands/objects" that create "throw-able anything" as that feels like it should be celestial realm. However, a touch casting only healing <something>, to reinforce healing... not opposed. What the effect to reinforce healing is to be? Two ideas, Using the current 2.0 wand model (charges = build spent divided by 3, effect increases ever 50 build spent on appropriate magic):


First: Possibly something even basic, but minorly cool. Using your healing focus, first aid can be done 5 seconds faster base, increasing an additional 5 seconds every 50 build spent.

I feel that the fact that first aid gets "pretty darn fast" as players approach 200+ build on earth magic is ok because as a player who has played at that level for many years now... I find the increased number of spells in my arsenal already keep me from using first aid as often as often as I needed to at lower levels. If it becomes too much of a game balance worry, toss in a ceiling "first aid time can never be reduced below <x> seconds in this way" (should never drop below 3 seconds anyway).


Second: An alternative similar but different... a <something> that helps reduce the <10 minutes effect> time of... well "any negatives effects" (or a targeted single effect enjoy debating). This is defined the same as purify, meaning if a purify would remove it, this knocks time off the timer. Start at 1 minute, and increase by 15 seconds per 50 build. It essentially becomes purify lite during a fight (pumping a number of charges into a person to heal them of their current malady), or a way to help burn off stray effects after fights are over, preventing the pile of "sorry you're still withered/drained/ etc, sit there and count for 10 mins"
 
With Body growing as a result of both Hearty and racial Body increasing every 10 Build, it makes sense to me to make the touch-casting wand/focus, or be able to spontaneously convert to a healing/necro signature spell, or even a High Magic that lets you expend, say, 10 spell levels of stuff from memory for a 100 Healing touch-cast.
 
Here's an idea...

Celestial casters have wands. Earth casters have an innate ability to turn lesser undead. Not the fleeing effect of the Turn Undead spell, but allows the earth caster to channel enough earth energy to make undead unable to approach them. If cornered, the undead will still be able to defend itself against an attacking caster.

Have it follow similar rules to wands. Give them a packet attack (quantities identical to the celestial wand packets) that escalates in power as the caster accumulates 9th level spells. The NPC monster card would just need to reflect their "turn resistance". If a skeleton is turned by a level 1 earth turn, they must shun the caster while in line of sight. A ghast might ignore a level 1 earth turn, but is affected by a level 2 earth turn. So on and so forth. By virtue of this curve (based upon monster build) there may even be certain lesser undead monsters that are not affected by a level 5 or 6 earth turn.

Greater undead would still require the caster to have access to the Turn Undead spell to have any effect whatsoever. If a greater undead is targeted by an earth turn, it does not trigger a guard. The response would be " no effect".

If you want to throw necromancers a bone, have the verbal and effect change from "earth turn" to "chaos mask". The effect does not cause the affected undead target to shun the caster. It merely ignores the caster as a potential target. The caster is essentially invisible to the undead and both the undead target and the masked caster may move freely amongst each other. The undead under the mask effect will not attack the caster unless attacked by the caster first.

Again...the BBGs will still shrug it off.

It's not a game changing ability, unless your chapter's plot uses undead monsters exclusively. It wouldn't break the game. It would merely make high level earth casters more vital to combatting undead without having to expend their valuable healing spells to have an impact.
 
It's not a game changing ability, unless your chapter's plot uses undead monsters exclusively. It wouldn't break the game. It would merely make high level earth casters more vital to combatting undead without having to expend their valuable healing spells to have an impact.

This, along with all other ideas are interesting. But they all have one major problem. These all greatly benefit higher level casters. But low level earth casters are still left out in the cold, quaking in their stylish yet adorable boots.
 
Not really. The earth caster will have access to just as many turn charges as a celestial caster of equal level has wand charges.

Granted, it is a less versatile ability...but it's a step in the right direction.

I'm not trying to make earth casters OP. I'm merely trying to make them a more appealing option. Right now, celestial casters are getting all the love. I just want to try to even the playing field a bit.

If you want your earth caster to be an undead slayer instead of a combat medic, this ability gives you the option of being effective against undead without having to expend your precious healing spells to do so.
 
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It seems the real issue here is that earth caster fear using necromancy as it's reasonably punished harshly. There is SO MUCH I have seen earth casters do outside of goody goody view. The new system absolutely benefits celestial casters but earth casters were also buffed. Maybe we just have more casters using potions and sliders in our chapter but even low level casters get by with it. In my opinion the best way to benefit low level healers would be to give potions some better use for casters. It requires no new wand, you could make it more worthwhile for low level potions so the upper levels don't run away with it. My example would be to have cure light potions be 1 counted to speed up pickups after your column is used, but I play a fighter so maybe this would cause it's own problem that I'm not thinking of.
 
Part of the problem with the current and the new rules may be that earth scholars have few choices besides becoming healers.

My wife wanted to play a witch themed character throwing lots of curse and death spells. I knew that at first level she would get bored with her 7 crappy spells so I donated a bunch and gobbied her up to a 4 block. She still she didn't get that many fun spells to throw. She has no desire to come with me to events any more. I imagine it's even worse for someone who takes healing spells.

Earth scholars might be able to become dangerous necromancers with the new rules and the corrupt spell, which is cool. But if you want to be a hero (or at least hang out with the town) and throw offensive spells, earth seems like a poor choice.
 
Part of the problem with the current and the new rules may be that earth scholars have few choices besides becoming healers.

My wife wanted to play a witch themed character throwing lots of curse and death spells. I knew that at first level she would get bored with her 7 crappy spells so I donated a bunch and gobbied her up to a 4 block. She still she didn't get that many fun spells to throw. She has no desire to come with me to events any more. I imagine it's even worse for someone who takes healing spells.

Earth scholars might be able to become dangerous necromancers with the new rules and the corrupt spell, which is cool. But if you want to be a hero (or at least hang out with the town) and throw offensive spells, earth seems like a poor choice.

I think the primary issue with your wife's experience was a desire to do something that would be best served if we had a more expansive spell list. But that would also, ultimately, be more complicated (more effects!) and provide earth casters with more influence than would likely be balanced.

Offensive earth casters will be more feasible in the new system due to less Cloaks being prevalent, and with Meditate to get back those precious missed spells. However, it will -always- be behind C-casting for offensive potential.

And that should never change, because Rebirth and Life spells being ridiculously amazing.
 
I think the primary issue with your wife's experience was a desire to do something that would be best served if we had a more expansive spell list. But that would also, ultimately, be more complicated (more effects!) and provide earth casters with more influence than would likely be balanced.

Offensive earth casters will be more feasible in the new system due to less Cloaks being prevalent, and with Meditate to get back those precious missed spells. However, it will -always- be behind C-casting for offensive potential.

And that should never change, because Rebirth and Life spells being ridiculously amazing.
I don't think it's the number of different spells - I think it's the number of spells. Even a 12 block earth scholar will run of stuff to throw at bad guys real fast while a 12 block celestial scholar will still be going strong. With my wife's 4 block it was one battle and done. I'm not sure that removing cloak items will help because my wife wasn't pvping. Monsters can still have resists and whatnot.

I found it interesting that in the section on prof costs they mentioned closing the gap between high level and low level players. Meanwhile the gap between high level and low level casters is increasing with the new rules and low level casters already had it bad.

Anyway, offensive earth scholars get a buff from meditate but they still have too few spells to throw at bad guys.

Their healing job gets harder and their possible roles remain limited:
So, under the currently proposed v2 rules, the role of a Healer and the player's ability to fulfill it will no longer be quite the same due to a number of changes. A few of the major issues impacting them have been outlined below. This list is by no means fully inclusive, and there are plenty of other factors that can change that role's playstyle as well.
  • The removal of "Prepare to Die" calls significantly hampers a Healer's (or buffer / support role) ability to proactively prevent strategically selected instances of martial damage. Utilizing a 2nd level spell slot to nullify an incoming instance of damage (Slay / Eviscerate) sufficient enough so as to reduce a character beyond 0 body is a far more efficient use of spell slots than the number required to potentially restore that fallen character to their previous body point total. Removing the potential for proactive martial burst damage prevention from this role results in an increase in necessary healing output or the expenditure of more finite defensive resources on the recipient's part. This begins to transition the playability of the role away from an active participant in the combat process to more simply a "responder" who patches people up after they have received damage.
  • The removal of the Expanded Enchantment ritual noticeably limits the availability of healing and Life access, placing additional burden on existing Healers to compensate for the loss of these items. The addition of the Corrupt effect also introduces another tool to the plot team's portfolio that requires the use of a now more scarce Life spell to successfully counteract.
  • Storm spells change the healing landscape by providing more mathematically efficient healing options at the expense of execution time. For example, utilizing a 5th level slot with a Lesser Earth Storm can net you a total of 40 points of healing (or 80 with Potency), as opposed to the Signature Spell's 25 at that level. The tradeoff is that a healing call must be made 8 times for this higher healing value. At 9th level that increases to 75 (or 150 with Potency) Storm healing over the 45 Signature healing, with 15 calls. This is not necessarily an improvement or a downgrade, it simply changes the dynamics of healing in combat, requiring adjustments in timing, positioning and safeguarding the caster.
  • The removal of Cloak and Bane items may result in more harmful effects landing on players, requiring Healers (or buffer / support role) to prepare numerous status removal spells over other potential utility options such as crowd control.

In the end earth magic as a roleplaying thing appeals to people who want to do more than just heal. So it's a problem if the rule system says earth scholars can only be good at healing. If earth scholars could have a little more fun throwing curses, my wife would probably still be playing this game. I don't know, but maybe we've lost other players for similar reasons over the years.
 
All of the problems with Earth casters being viewed as weak combatants would be solved with the flick of a switch if plot committees didn't universally make necromancy a crime in every single game realm.

If James' wife were allowed to cast a few chaos incants without the threat of her character immediately suffering a PvP beatdown, she might still be playing the game.
 
I feel like I got really wordy, so for those who'd rather not read it all:

TL;DR said:
I feel that Earth casters make an appropriate trade-off in power for the ability to heal, and thus do not require a 'wand' to be equal to Celestial casters; their jobs are totally different in the overall game, and if you find Earth magic to be not fun because it focuses heavily on healing instead of damage, you should probably consider switching to a Celestial caster during the rebuild.

In regards to whether Earth casters should get something analogous to wands, I would say yes but no: yes, because Earth casters for sure get shafted in a lot of ways early on that such an item might help to mitigate; no in that my personal view is that the ability to heal should be made at a trade-off for other power somewhere, and adding such an item would 'devalue' that choice.

For example, choosing to go full caster with Earth magic (the Scholar route) means your damage output is going to be overall quite low (short of Necromancy), but you'll have access to powerful magic (Life, specifically) much faster, and because you probably won't be on the 'front lines', as it were, you can focus on healing and protectives; choosing to go for more damage (the Templar/Adept route) early means you'll be working towards those stronger spells much longer, and/or you'll be taking more debilitating spells.

While it's true that Celestial casters also have to make the casting/damage choice, choosing one over the other still results in an increase in offensive ability overall; Earth casters specifically have to choose (in a general sense) whether they want to have damage or magic, and that choice should be meaningful to both the player and the character.

For the record, I went my first 3 months as an Earth Scholar without any offensive abilities at all: no weapon skills, no Disarms, Pins, or Repels, and no Alchemy; my character still doesn't have any weapon skills, and has chosen to specialise in Potions and Alchemy over spells, due to in-game factors and his personal outlook. This is not a character I feel most people could play and enjoy, but I do, and I would have liked it considerably less if I wasn't forced to make all of the choices that led me here (primarily the damage/healing choice). (If anyone is interested in hearing about it, send me a PM and I'll explain why he made the choices he did.)

Daedric said:
All of the problems with Earth casters being viewed as weak combatants would be solved with the flick of a switch if plot committees didn't universally make necromancy a crime in every single game realm.
This specific rule is entirely out of the hands of Plot, since the rulebook states that Necromancy is illegal everywhere PCs might be in-game.

On the subject of offensive Earth casting being limited, though, in my own personal view that's half-true; you can take no healing spells at all and be fairly effective in most skirmishes, or a good second line in larger battles.

1: Disarm, Endow
2: Weapon Shield, Repel, Slow
3: Bind, Weakness, Shatter
4: Poison Shield, Shun
5: Silence, Spell Shield
6: Earth Blade, Elemental Shield, Sleep
7: Charm, Confine, Destruction
8: Reflect Spell, Paralysis
9: Death

This spell list is still perfectly usable in many situations, and if your chapter has a lot of healers it might be worthwhile to go pure support/debilitation to make their job a little easier. (I am aware that every spell that isn't a Curse, Earth Blade, Endow, or Poison Shield is available to both schools; the point of the list was to point out that it's possible to play a more 'offensive' Earth caster, so long as you allow 'offense' to mean more than just 'damage'.)
 
I see your point. But I still think earth casters get the shaft while celestial casters get all the goodies.

I remember a time when hardly anyone played a celestial caster. Between racial biases and the limited amount of total damage a celestial scholar could toss in a day, they were an afterthought. Then came wands and then high magic. Since then, it's been hard to walk into a room without bumping into a 4 column celestial caster.

And all the while, earth casters are still looked at as healers. If you're an earth scholar who runs out of healing or protectives on the battlefield, fighters treat you like a wart.
 
I feel like that's sort of part and parcel to deciding, "I want to be an Earth caster", though? Like, the decision to say, "I'm fine with not having a lot of goodies, but in exchange I can heal the wounded," is the core of what it means (to me) to take that route. I also play in a chapter in which it is illegal to cast from both schools of magic, so my view is inherently skewed and 'dual-casting' might as well be 'riding unicorns to battle'.

If your fighters are looking down their noses at Earth casters who are out of spells, that sounds more like a problem with them than Earth casting (it may be fully in character, but if you have that many people running around your chapter who view Earth casters as nothing more than vending machines for healing, the vindictive side of me heavily suggests allowing a few to end up in the resurrection circle until they learn to treat your healers better); in our chapter the Earth casters are given quite a lot of respect regardless of whether they have spells left or not. The closest we get to disrespect is that most people don't think to reimburse the Earth casters for potions and other healing; this isn't an issue for everyone (my character doesn't care about money outside of having enough to fund production and eat), but some people are a little more salty about it.
 
All of the problems with Earth casters being viewed as weak combatants would be solved with the flick of a switch if plot committees didn't universally make necromancy a crime in every single game realm.

If James' wife were allowed to cast a few chaos incants without the threat of her character immediately suffering a PvP beatdown, she might still be playing the game.

Legalizing necro could make earth better at combat, but if necromancy is still "Evil" then a lot of character concepts won't work. I suggested working on curses because they don't have 25 years of 'only the evilest of evils do that' history.

But I agree that celestial scholars are way better for many people. I like to be pretty involved in fights. Would I rather have a 12 block or a 12 block plus 100+ wand charges?. I know OOG I'll have more combat fun the second way so I adjust my character concept and RP to go celestial.
 
And all the while, earth casters are still looked at as healers. If you're an earth scholar who runs out of healing or protectives on the battlefield, fighters treat you like a wart.

Sounds like a chapter/regional culture issue. Folks in the Pac NW know who holds their Life spells.

Just saying.

Edit: As for losing people who might have stayed, that's not really an argument that would ever sway me. The Alliance system isn't for everyone. It simply can't appeal to an entire audience. Players need to be willing to adapt to what's a fairly successful system, not the other way around.
 
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