Earth Wands

[Tantarus]

So I have seen this pop up alot in threads about balance between earth and celestial. But I have never really seen an answer why earth should not get a wand. Even if it only did healing/chaos it would be a big step to balancing the 2 schools.

Currently just picking celestial gets you around twice as many packets to throw or use in a day. Which is alot of extra things to do over the course of an event. Even if the wand was healing only it would let earth memorize more offensive spells if they wanted to go that way or more effect removal spells if they wanted to remain healing focused.

Or if you really want to give earth something to do in fights give them a wand that does actual damage like an Order wand or something so they can be useful in any fight, not just undead. Earth should not be relegated to a choice of sitting in the back and used as a heal battery or burning all there spells on offensive.

Giving earth wands would be a large boon to the class no matter which way you play it. Also lets be real, how is it remotely fair that just for picking a different school of magic and at no build cost you get double the stuff to do in a day. I really don't understand how this imbalance has gone on so long. Would the owners care to enlighten us?

I feel like between adding an earth wand and removing golems you bring both scholars to be much more on par with each other. Celestial feels like it is at the right place powerful wise (sans golems) and earth needs to be caught up to it. (Assuming none of this paragon stuff happens)

 

[Avaran]

I think Wands are bad for the game and should just go away, Celestial doesn't need them.

But I will say....if owners feel that Celestial needs Wands, then that same logic/reasoning - whatever those reasons are - NEEDS TO APPLY TO EARTH AS WELL. Because those players have to deal with that same issue, and yet, nothing is apparently being done about that.

 

[Kasuni]

I like the idea of both earth and celestial having wands.

I would support an earth/chaos wand. I'm thinking *not* healing, but earth that would harm undead/take out Elemental shields.

 

[jdackow]

I am not should if it should be a wand or some other type of phys rep to differentiate the classes on the field easier. I like healing orbs better then wands

Also if healing, would they be able to walk a battle field with one point pick me ups for a charge. thematically I think this would make them easy to not be a heal bot as they would be able to save spell for other effect and still heal.

As a C caster with only one 9th level I rarely use my wand as I have a bow I can hit harder with and block. However that could change with the 2.0 changes

 

[Avaran]

take out Elemental shields.

The more ways you put into the game to take out Elemental Shields, the less value elemental shields have. This is made worse by the fact that buff/shield spells now run out after 5 days.

Let me try to illustrate this:
If a SINGLE 4-column caster has 36 wand charges, that is 36 Elemental Shields that ONE caster can negate.

I ask you: what would the purpose be of memorizing Elemental Shield? If you know at any point any Scholar can just flip a relatively meaningless Wand packet at you and negate your Elemental Shield, why would you even bother with Elemental Shields outside of walking into a fight versus a Big Bad where said shield will likely be negated by that same skill?

Keep in mind, too, that that same Caster can only memorize up to 4 Elemental Shields (not counting things like Paragon Paths). Wouldn't you rather pick other spells at that level that will actually be of use? In today's game, for an Earth Scholar, that is a Cure Crit or a Sleep (take-out effect); for Celestial, that is a Sleep (take-out) spell.

For lower levels, it gets even worse. Say you only have 6th level spell as a Scholar, pick Elemental Shield, and then see it negated by a L1 scholar with a wand and an Elemental wand charge for basically having a single first level spell.

 

[Eldor]

All I really care is that Celestial and Earth are generally balanced, getting rid of Golems goes a long way towards that, but not far enough.

Earth gaining a wand or Celestial losing one makes no difference to me, and the only place I feel it does matter is in a discussion debating caster vs melee damage output, as a wand can greatly increase a casters total damage potential.

What I would like to see is Earth wands being healing/chaos, while having NPCs focus more on dealing damage, and less on KO effects, this would give dedicated healers more to do when the undead are not around, while reducing the need for so many KO effect and Guard calls, that can make combat more confusing.

I am not should if it should be a wand or some other type of phys rep to differentiate the classes on the field easier. I like healing orbs better then wands

I would agree, that even if Earth gets a "Wand" that it not be a wand, specifically for this reason.

 

[mythic]

We are working on a proposal currently. It has been waiting for a couple owners to put in their votes to move it along (for more than a month now). You may want to prod your Chapter Owner to see if they have actually voted on the proposal.

 

[mikestrauss]

This is a tricky topic that I go back and forth on because Earth magic is simply better than Celestial magic, and that is ignoring necromancy completely. Celestial gets damage spells, ward, and prison. Earth gets healing and curse spells. Damage spells really aren't that great because pretty much anyone can deal damage. Ward is a customer service spell. Only prison really stands out and it is 9th level. Healing, on the other hand, isn't highly available outside of earth and I truly believe that curse is the best overall effect group in the game.

Wands were created to help deal with this imbalance. Most of you probably don't remember the time before wands (no insult intended here, it isn't a crime to have not played the game as long as someone else). But before wands were created celestial casters were a nearly extinct breed. Damage spells simply didn't hold muster compared to fighters and rogues and every other meaningful spell was also in earth. Earth also had earth blade, which was one of the most powerful spells in the game when cast on a competent fighter.

Wands were created as a carrot to encourage people to play celestial casters. It worked. The balance between celestial casters and earth casters was roughly even a short time after the creation of wands.

I see hints, in the 2.0 rules, that earth casters may fall slightly out of favor. I don't think it is as bad as some people here are making it, but I can see how celestial casters may be a little more enticing in the 2.0 rules than they currently are. As such, I do think some small extra benefit would be appropriate, but I think the equivalent of a healing/earth/necro wand is probably overkill.

And that is where I stall out, because I'm not quite sure what I think the middle ground is...

-MS

 

[Tantarus]

This is a tricky topic that I go back and forth on because Earth magic is simply better than Celestial magic, and that is ignoring necromancy completely.

You state this like it is a fact, Just like when you claimed npc damage would not be reduced in 2.0 and where wrong. It is highly debatable. Prison is the best take out in the game and doubles for defense. Ward is a real spell regardless of you trying to underplay how important it is to most people. I would argue celestial has pros and cons to earth making them fairly even until you add in wand and golems.

Damage spells really aren't that great because pretty much anyone can deal damage.

Except earth against non undead.

Healing, on the other hand, isn't highly available outside of earth

Except from potions (and elixirs), You know the only consumables that don't take a prereq to use, unlike scrolls/gases.

and I truly believe that curse is the best overall effect group in the game.

Hardly, paralyze is highly limited in what it effects. Many mobs hit so hard and have so much hp that they can ignore destruction and weakness. Death being moved to curse has yet to be proven out. And will see if it even gets memorized over Life spells. Now that you have to actively chose to not get a life in order to get a death.

Most of you probably don't remember the time before wands (no insult intended here, it isn't a crime to have not played the game as long as someone else). But before wands were created celestial casters were a nearly extinct breed. Damage spells simply didn't hold muster compared to fighters and rogues and every other meaningful spell was also in earth. Earth also had earth blade, which was one of the most powerful spells in the game when cast on a competent fighter.

Argument from authority? I played back then too, Earthblade was not a thing always. And yes earth was slightly better in that it kept the fighters fighting, not because of curses or anything earth specific outside of healing fighters. And wands and golems where a huge over adjustment, imo

Wands were created as a carrot to encourage people to play celestial casters. It worked. The balance between celestial casters and earth casters was roughly even a short time after the creation of wands.

I would love to see some numbers on this, got any raw data or just making another guess like npc damage not changing in 2.0 and presenting it as fact? What is the balance at currently?

At level 30 a celestial caster get around 1500 free points of damage to throw currently. For no build. In 2.0 That number lowers but is still significant advantage. Do you honestly think if you give earth some kinda wand suddenly all the celestial casters go away? Seems pretty unlikely to me. (Especially given their Superior paragons if those pass. )

 

[MondayMcGee]

When I started playing, I rolled up an earth scholar. My first game, mechanically speaking, was miserable. I blew through all my spells in no time, and was left with nothing to do. It was really, really off-putting as a new player and if I didn't have friends in the game who promised to help me improve my experience, I would likely not have kept playing. As is, I felt the need to switch to Adept. An earth wand would have given me something else to do, and gone a long way towards improving that first game experience and maybe even actually having fun as a low level earth scholar.

 

[Avaran]

This is a tricky topic that I go back and forth on because Earth magic is simply better than Celestial magic, and that is ignoring necromancy completely.

I absolutely disagree on this. You can say "In my experience..." but other chapters and regions have different play styles, and I can tell you with a straight face that out here Celestial is an absolute Juggernaut. This is, in part, due to the fact that our Fighters out here aren't carrying around 100+ rituals in their pockets, and they certainly don't have 20-40+ Cloak/Bane defenses, nor do we have Reavers/Slayers to artificially boost damage. Most of the MI's out here don't go to Fighters; nor do we have "groups" and "treasuries" like East Coast has, outside of a couple of groups, and they certainly aren't as well-stocked as some East Coast groups.

In my experience, Celestial has been better than Earth for a long time.

Damage spells really aren't that great because pretty much anyone can deal damage.

This same argument can be used to say that Celestial doesn't need Wands because they can just pick up a Sword and deal damage all day. Damage spells are only bad if Plot has to Body Bloat their monsters and/or stack defenses because there are 15 Scholars running around with 14-columns and they need their monsters to live longer than a couple of seconds.

So I ask, why do Celestial Scholars need FREE Elemental Shield poppers and, in a lot of cases, powerful Elemental attacks whose damage rivals that of comparable-level Fighters? I know several Celestial casters out here to throw 20's with their Wand. That is as much as I usually swing for in damage with my weapon, and they can do it from a safe distance, cast their own defenses, use High Magic to fill in the gaps, and unload with take-out effects like Prison, burst something down with their Burst Pool, and generally wreak havoc.

Now, you might say they lack longevity, and that might be true for the East Coast style of game where - I've heard - there are wave battles that last for hours until people just kinda run out of stuff. That is an issue with game style/plot/monster camp and an issue with how things are run, not with the class or the game rules.

Wands were created to help deal with this imbalance. Most of you probably don't remember the time before wands (no insult intended here, it isn't a crime to have not played the game as long as someone else). But before wands were created celestial casters were a nearly extinct breed. Damage spells simply didn't hold muster compared to fighters and rogues and every other meaningful spell was also in earth. Earth also had earth blade, which was one of the most powerful spells in the game when cast on a competent fighter.

I played for several years before Wands. My opinion isn't changed. Power Creep and Damage Bloat need to be reduced, not expanded upon. Wands were a bad idea then, and they are a bad idea now.

Further I would like to see actual numbers before believing anyone who says there was a class imbalance or that Celestials were a 'dying breed'. Again, that has not been my experience. Hell, once Golems became Master Constructs and really easy to acquire, we would have between 3 and 7 golems PER EVENT. And those characters were around long before Wands and Golems/Master Constructs.

And celestial isn't just good in 2.0, it is stupid-good, and it is over-powered good when you factor in Paragon Paths.

 

[mythic]

So I was crunching numbers and I hope everyone can bear with me. (for this example I am assuming the exact same trajectory for Earth healing as Celestial Wands)

Wands do 1 point to start. A new 25 point character can throw 10 packets (4-3-2-1) for an additional 10 healing. That is if they land and cannot be touchcast, (so could accidentally pop Spell Shield or Reflect) or meditated back.

Does that really seem "so good it will change a new player's experience"? Likely not. How many players walked into game with a Wand ready to go? How many will want to bring an Orb, or whatever, along to a new game? Again, I don't know, but I have a feeling not many (especially if there is a 1sp cost when you only start with a couple if you are lucky). I would even worry that a new player will try to heal a highbe (I'm helping) and pop a defense making the player upset. Again, not a great idea for a new player.

To do 3s, you need 105 scholar build. That is a 4 column (doing nothing else but spells). You have 33 packets. You can now heal for 198 body for a weekend. That is, again, if all packets hit with all the other problems associated with throwing packets in combat (person does not hear/feel the packet etc.)

In comparison, for 60 build a Potion Maker with a Workshop in a weekend can create 400 points of healing (I crunched the numbers 400 is the max no matter what combo you use). These can be handed out and do not have the chance of missing or popping a Shield/reflect.

To get to 5s you need 205 Scholar build. That is a 6 column with 16 Formals and nothing else. That is about 4 years of play. You would now have 67 packets and can dish out 670 healing with the same caveats as above. Pretty impressive, but it in no way helps out low level players be more active.

We went through a weekend playtest. Most of our healers had healing to spare by logistics each night (Especially the high level healers).

The owners have had a Healing Wand proposal come up twice (3 years ago at symposium and late last year) and twice it was voted down (and not by narrow margins either). I honestly don't know if we can drag it back up for a third try.

We do have a proposal to give something to Earth Casters. We just need to finalize the wording and it should be ready to go in the next playtest.

 

[Avaran]

So I was crunching numbers and I hope everyone can bear with me. (for this example I am assuming the exact same trajectory for Earth healing as Celestial Wands)

Wands do 1 point to start. A new 25 point character can throw 10 packets (4-3-2-1) for an additional 10 healing. That is if they land and cannot be touchcast, (so could accidentally pop Spell Shield or Reflect) or meditated back.

Does that really seem "so good it will change a new player's experience"? Likely not. How many players walked into game with a Wand ready to go? How many will want to bring an Orb, or whatever, along to a new game? Again, I don't know, but I have a feeling not many (especially if there is a 1sp cost when you only start with a couple if you are lucky). I would even worry that a new player will try to heal a highbe (I'm helping) and pop a defense making the player upset. Again, not a great idea for a new player.

To do 3s, you need 105 scholar build. That is a 4 column (doing nothing else but spells). You have 33 packets. You can now heal for 198 body for a weekend. That is, again, if all packets hit with all the other problems associated with throwing packets in combat (person does not hear/feel the packet etc.)

In comparison, for 60 build a Potion Maker with a Workshop in a weekend can create 400 points of healing (I crunched the numbers 400 is the max no matter what combo you use). These can be handed out and do not have the chance of missing or popping a Shield/reflect.

To get to 5s you need 205 Scholar build. That is a 6 column with 16 Formals and nothing else. That is about 4 years of play. You would now have 67 packets and can dish out 670 healing with the same caveats as above. Pretty impressive, but it in no way helps out low level players be more active.

We went through a weekend playtest. Most of our healers had healing to spare by logistics each night (Especially the high level healers).

The owners have had a Healing Wand proposal come up twice (3 years ago at symposium and late last year) and twice it was voted down (and not by narrow margins either). I honestly don't know if we can drag it back up for a third try.

We do have a proposal to give something to Earth Casters. We just need to finalize the wording and it should be ready to go in the next playtest.

So why isn't this same line of thinking used for Celestial? You can make the exact same "this isn't going to benefit low level characters much, if at all" and "at the end of the play test, our Celestial Scholars had Damage Spells left over." arguments for Celestial. Heck, I could turn your whole post into "well, celestial only gets 10 extra packets with a 4-3-2-1, will that make a difference to a new player?" examples.

And yet, Celestials get this added bonus, and Earth casters don't.

It's a really glaring, really awful, double standard.

 

[Alavatar]

And celestial isn't just good in 2.0, it is stupid-good, and it is over-powered good when you factor in Paragon Paths.

In comparison to all other classes I believe Celestial Scholars were nerfed the least. In some cases, Celestial Scholars were buffed. For instance, I currently throw 54 packets of 13 damage per day, totaling 702 Elemental Damage per day.

Under 2.0 Celestial Formal adds to Scholar Skills, bumping me to 151 packets at 10 each, totaling 1510 Elemental Damage per day.

Earth Scholars definitely need a Wand or Fetish or Focus or whatever to balance with Celestial Scholars. Or, Wands need to be removed.

Further I would like to see actual numbers before believing anyone who says there was a class imbalance or that Celestials were a 'dying breed'. Again, that has not been my experience. Hell, once Golems became Master Constructs and really easy to acquire, we would have between 3 and 7 golems PER EVENT. And those characters were around long before Wands and Golems/Master Constructs.

To be fair, Master Constructs became easily accessible in Oregon/Seattle because we had/have them available for Goblin Stamp purchase.

 

[Avaran]

To be fair, Master Constructs became easily accessible on the West Coast because we had/have them available for Goblin Stamp purchase.

I guess my point there was merely to highlight that it was a whole lot easier to tell there were Celestial casters out and about, and a lot of them. And those without golems became that much more useful with their wands because they could heal those who were in golems. Just like EC's would be able to heal others with their wands.

 

[mythic]

So why isn't this same line of thinking used for Celestial? You can make the exact same "this isn't going to benefit low level characters much, if at all" and "at the end of the play test, our Celestial Scholars had Damage Spells left over." arguments for Celestial. Heck, I could turn your whole post into "well, celestial only gets 10 extra packets with a 4-3-2-1, will that make a difference to a new player?" examples.

And yet, Celestials get this added bonus, and Earth casters don't.

It's a really glaring, really awful, double standard.

Actually, it is a pretty weak "bonus" for new C casters as well. I have never seen a new C Caster come into game with a Wand all excited to toss a few extra packets for the cost of 1 sp. Not in the 6 years we have been running. Has anyone? We usually mention it to a new player thinking of a caster with the caveat "It's really not that important to have this extra physrep when you first come into game." Usually it's the other casters mentoring the new player and saying "at some point get yourself a wand" but again, its not something that they go and do immediately.

 

[Tantarus]

Considering you can go get a branch from a tree and a 2 silver single element wand, That excuse does not really hold up for me when it comes to new players. I am sure they would love to have double the starting packets to use in a day.

 

[Saephis]

Actually, it is a pretty weak "bonus" for new C casters as well. I have never seen a new C Caster come into game with a Wand all excited to toss a few extra packets for the cost of 1 sp. Not in the 6 years we have been running. Has anyone? We usually mention it to a new player thinking of a caster with the caveat "It's really not that important to have this extra physrep when you first come into game." Usually it's the other casters mentoring the new player and saying "at some point get yourself a wand" but again, its not something that they go and do immediately.

I feel like you're missing the point. You're comparing the haves-and-have-nots as if the numerous calls for Earth Wands (In some capacity) being needed to attempt to equalize the schools of magic don't exist. The point isn't at 3rd level, when you have a wand plinking away for one point of damage eight times, but the fact that a 25th level earth scholar just looks at a celestial caster, wistfully, as they run out of spells ... and keep going.

As noted in previous threads, we're at least at 4 chapters with LCO Earth Wands, per the LCO High Magic rules, and likely closer to an even half-dozen. Clearly there is a growing number of chapters taking action on it, likely due to player demand -- players, who I'll remind, pay to play games and thus the ability for chapters to stay open.

The fact that, at this moment via the poll available to players and owners alike, there's literally two people who have said "No, nothing is needed" and more than five times that number have said "Yes, something is needed" speaks volumes.

 

[Gilwing]

Adam I agree 100%.
If its ok for C casters to have this boon why does E casters get snubbed?

An Earth Wand that is EXACTLY like a C Wand with heal/chaos should be the proposal. Yes it pops spell shields, yes you can pop your friends SS and they might be pissed, don't like it, fine. Next time i'll just let you die with your spell shield on. The same applies when some one is bleeding out and you run over and hit them with a CLW. If they had a SS it pops.

As for new characters, let them start with a wand of their choice. Its only 2 SP. If its so game breaking that we can't give out free wands to first time players maybe the C guild should have spares.

 

[Gilwing]

The fact that, at this moment via the poll available to players and owners alike, there's literally two people who have said "No, nothing is needed" and more than five times that number have said "Yes, something is needed" speaks volumes.

Yes, but its not up to us. Its up to our owners.