[.11] Fear/Bersek strike are both commands

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
Have you considered that both sides of this strike are Commands and the effect that has on MWE rogues? Sleep/Paralysis, Sleep/Enfeeble and Weakness/Shun would have similarly-interesting tension from reversible Earth spells, where I have the power to do evil and choose not to each time I use it, but with Fear/Berserk, not only would I just have one less skill available to purchase, any of my friends who bought the skill would have to just forgo using those points around me with no alternative or I would have to metagame and pretend to ignore what is going on so their points aren't wasted.
 
Last edited:
Is there some specific reason they couldn't use it around you?

Sylvanborn (remember that the name has changed in the packet) might hate Commands, but they're not honor- or duty-bound to slay anyone who uses them, and each Sylvanborn is going to have a different 'tolerance' for what sorts of creatures you can Command and what Commands you can use (in my experience, Sleep is usually fairly safe even on humanoids in some cases, and using any Command on an Animal or Vermin is seen as totally acceptable). From the national packet:
They do not believe these things are inherently evil (like most people consider necromancy to be); it is their use against intelligent beings that they object to. In other words, a Mystic Wood elf may have no problem whatsoever casting those particular spells on an unintelligent monster. A Mystic Wood elf may even cast a Dominate on another person if serves the purpose of removing another Command (so long as the Mystic Wood elf immediately gives the order to “return to normal.”) It is the ends that are important, not the means.

It is up to each player to make his or her own decision on that, which can cause all sorts of nice role-playing arguments among the race.
I would think it would open up lovely RP about the nature of sentience and the overwriting of will with other Races to be that militant about No Commands Ever (and I would LOVE to read some of that debate), or you might be able to do weird stuff like befriend a sentient creature someone else Feared by using Break Command on it as show of good will, but that all comes down to how violently opposed to Commands you want to be.

If your chapter has specific requirements that Sylvanborn are so highly opposed to Commands that they feel the need to stop others from using them, then that's fine, but the national packet doesn't require that, so for the purposes of playtest packet discussion I feel it kind of has to be treated as an individual character choice until an Owner or ARC says otherwise.

ETA: I do get where you're coming from, in that the other skills have a Command/Non-Command choice, but I'm honestly not sure why a Sylvanborn wouldn't be able to take it, even if they only used it on Animals, or why other Races around them wouldn't be able to use it at all.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Sylvanborn aren’t prohibited from using Commands. While they might be uncomfortable with employing them at times, they’ve thrown Sleep spells. They’ve thrown other Commands. Fear, especially, could simply be interpreted as being a means of intimidation. Causing your enemy to go mad with rage could certainly be skirting a line...but sometimes the ends justify the means.
 

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
[Note: this was in response to Sage of Legaia, not the later-edited post just above.] Oh goody, I'm so glad you're here to tell me how to role play the character I've only played since 2002. I've never had a spell book or alchemy book with a command effect in it and I long since lost track of how much treasure I've poured onto the ground: I have no problems with paying a cost for role playing my race. I just thought people might not have noticed the interaction here and not have intended to make MWEs even less optimal, especially when it seems like it is an easy thing to fix.
 
Last edited:

Inaryn

Knight
It's not something that needs fixing. It's completely your choice to play your character that way. I know some Sylvanborn that stringent... I know one that was able to rationalize me casting a charm on him (he hated undead more.) I know one that is racist AF in game and thinks Humans aren't sentient enough to count.

The skill is fine as is.
 
I already said that was fine as your character choice, but that the national packet doesn't require it, so your personal choices shouldn't be held up as reasoning for changing the skill. If you're going to be dismissive and snarky about that, then I'm done with you entirely. :D
 

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
If I were a min-maxer I wouldn't play a race that spent half a level on craftsman anyway and I'm sure it's possible to rationalize why it's fine, especially if it wouldn't affect your characters: I just wanted to be sure people were disadvantaging MWEs on purpose rather than by accident.
 
But it doesn't disadvantage them; they can take the skill if they want to, and nothing in the national packet stops them from using it if they do, provided they don't wantonly Fear or Berserk things for no reason.

If your ally is Charmed, you (general you) might Fear them so they have to run away from you (and hopefully whatever has Charmed them) so they can't be given instructions, and you can go Awaken them (or Break Command) from the Charm once the Fear drops (it's Line of Sight as of .11b).

Or you might be up against some particularly nasty Animals that can be Berserked into fighting each other to give you and your allies some breathing room or so they distract each other while you go in for the kill.

I will say that a Sylvanborn isn't likely to take more than 1 or 2 no matter how high a level they are, though personally I don't consider that a disadvantage.

If the crux of this topic is really "Why is this the only skill that doesn't follow the Command/Non-Command choice structure?", then that's a question we can only speculate on the answer to without ARC or an Owner stepping in to resolve it for us, and I'm rather loathe to do that at this time.

Also, I'm sorry I was short with you in my last post, but I felt the tone of your first reply to Draven and I was out of line.
 

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
I felt your reply, which amounts to "well, it isn't *required* that you role play" was patronizing and dismissive, which is why I responded in kind. I don't need you to tell me I'm wrong to play my character the way I've always played her, and your continued attempts to explain to me how I should play my character, as though I have not already spent literal years discussing these things, are not constructive.
 
I literally never said that you couldn't play her that way; I said that your choice to play her that way shouldn't have any bearing on discussing this skill in the playtest packet, because it's your personal choice to be that militant about a thing that you're not required to be that militant about. If you're going to take that as dismissive of your choice, then that's on you, and I'm not going to apologize for that.

ETA: I've also asked you specifically what is barring other Sylvanborn from taking this skill, or why other Races couldn't use it around Sylvanborn, and you have yet to give any answer at all; looking at your OP, that seems to be your major problem with this skill, but you haven't actually explained why it's a problem for anyone else. I'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk here, but if your problem with the skill boils down to "I don't get to use it because of a character choice I've made", then that isn't a problem with the skill, and it's not even a problem with your choice, but a necessary consequence of you making that choice, just like people who choose to play Biata have the consequence of no Celestial magic, and people who play Dryads have the consequence of no metal weapons.

We've all made choices, and some of those choices in 2.0 are going to lead to things we may not like, but unless it presents a glaring problem with the rules and skills, those personal choices aren't grounds for change.
 
Last edited:

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I felt your reply, which amounts to "well, it isn't *required* that you role play" was patronizing and dismissive, which is why I responded in kind. I don't need you to tell me I'm wrong to play my character the way I've always played her, and your continued attempts to explain to me how I should play my character, as though I have not already spent literal years discussing these things, are not constructive.
If I may.

Your argument has been that these skills make Rogue near unplayable for MWE/Sylvanborn characters.

However, it appears to be that you’re arguing that these skills make Rogue unplayable for characters who take on specific self-imposed restrictions that aren’t actually forced on them by the rules.

That’s not a fault of the rules.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
@Mori, my main character is a Sylvanborn and I am an owner, so I have sat on all of these discussions about this skill. I have even had the same thought and jokingly said in the owner Discord that it's "too bad I can't take Fear/Berserk Strike". As has been pointed out, that is absolutely untrue according to the rules, but I choose (and it sounds like you do too) to not use those abilities. Personally, I feel that there are a ton of useful and fun abilities for every single class in this version of the packet. I won't be able to use Fear/Berserk Strike, true, but that is because I have chosen not to, not because it is impossible for me to learn the ability or add it to my card. Am I a little sad that if I go Scout or Rogue in 2.0 I won't have Fear/Berserk Strike? Yes. Do I feel like I am unable to play the class entirely because of it? Not in the slightest.

To answer your question "have you considered that both sides of this strike are Commands...": yes. Yes we have. :)
 
Last edited:

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
The reason my friends wouldn't use it around me is because I would look at them like they had just kicked a puppy and then they would feel bad. Rules people may not care, but ask Cedric if he threw Charm in front of Issalura.
 
Once again, that isn't a problem with the skill, it's a result of the choice you've made with your character, and while there's nothing wrong with that choice, it still doesn't mean that Sylvanborn are somehow barred from learning and using it under circumstances they deem acceptable, or that other Races can't use it around them.

Also once again, is there a reason that doesn't involve your character choice that you feel the skill should be changed?
 

Mori

Newbie
Alliance Logistics
@Durnic Thank you for actually answering my question.

Everyone else: I'm so sorry me actually role playing my race gets in the way of your rules theorycraft. Now that I've confirmed making it suck for MWEs was intentional, we can all move on.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Factually incorrect blanket statements aren’t helpful. I’m sorry, but you’re being rude because your personal and not-all-rules-related restrictions are impacted. I could absolutely make a character who loathes Earth Magic and complain about how unfair it is that resurrections can only happen in an Earth Circle, but that would be silly, because the rules cannot be expected to make room for unique character traits that are entirely player-created.
 

Inaryn

Knight
@Durnic Thank you for actually answering my question.

Everyone else: I'm so sorry me actually role playing my race gets in the way of your rules theorycraft. Now that I've confirmed making it suck for MWEs was intentional, we can all move on.
It doesn't suck for Sylvanborn though. That's the part you're really not understanding. It just sucks for YOU and the way YOU play your character. As I said, I know plenty of people whose Sylvanborn characters wouldn't have a problem taking and using the skill in certain circumstances.

For instance, you could use it to Fear away some innocent creature so that your friends don't kill it. Or maybe make those two Gnolls duke it out by Berserking one. If your character is so militant about being anti-command, that's completely on you. The Sylvanborn race, per the rules, is in no way barred from using this skill.

Your hyper passive aggressiveness in non-conducive to the discussion.
 
Can we please lock this thread now, before we go around a fourth time of us beating our heads against a brick wall?
 
Top