Golems vs Earth Casters: Comparisons

phedre

Squire
This thread has been split from the Ritual change announcement thread because of its specific focus on this particular topic. Lets keep it friendly in here folks. Thanks. Stephen


And nothing's stopping you from burning a scroll and getting into a golem. The rules don't say that you have to be a celestialist to use one. In fact, they made it easier for you to get out of it, go to a circle and concentrate for 5 minutes... you're now out of the golem, no harm, no foul.

This whole thing seems bigger than it is right now because it has the New and Shiny quality to it... like I've said before, it's not everyone's end game to get in a golem.
 

Sunnfire

Squire
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Its harder to make, harder to get into, and weaker now than ever before.

I'm not sure how making it weaker and more difficult from every angle could have possibly destroyed anyones character concept, when there is nothing that it can do now that could not have been done before. Including anyone who wants to being able to use it.

You want a golem to go fight undead with your earth scholar or templar.. go get one. Nothing has ever been in the rules to stop you.
 

jpariury

Duke
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

phedre said:
And nothing's stopping you from burning a scroll and getting into a golem.
It's not about "can you", it's about "is this the best path to take to achieve the goal". Sure, an Earth caster can pop themselves into a golem, but build-point for build-point, it is better to do so as a celestial caster than as an earth caster. Putting an earth caster in a golem body means reducing your effectiveness because most of your school-specific spells become less utilitarian (No Bless, Earth Blade, Cure X Wounds, Purify, etc.). Putting a celestial caster is a two-fold improvement - a quarter of your damage spell options become healing options, and you get significantly more bonus healing out of wands than Earth's Bounty ever gets you to. Also, you create greater utility for another production item: scrolls as heals.

Personally, I didn't really mind Quicksilver Golems. Heal to full from Prison is better for the game than Heal from Element, imo, because Prison items are significantly more rare than the assorted element-based attacks, especially once you include accounting for scrolls, wands, elemental blades, and other packet-based attacks.

I'm not even necessarily saying that Golems are now or ever were OP. What I am saying though is that as an end-game combo for fighting undead, Celestial trumps Earth far and away, and that's, imo, a Bad Thing®.

Now, you give Earth casters a ritual that lets them go non-corporeal, gives them immunity to all the Celestial damage spells, immune to Greater Command, and a fat stack of bonus self-healing, a fistful of Solidifies, spirit-linked weapons capable of channeling Earth,which are also treated as Stakes of Woe, and then we'd be talking. :D
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

So in order to balance nerfed golems... we need to make Earth casters into Blade?

Something not right here.

Earth casters: If you are looking to make constructive suggestions about your class head on over to your respective magic discussion thread and get in on the conversation.

Stephen
National PR
 

jpariury

Duke
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

I disagree that making golems customizable is a nerf. While the cumulative stat card may be fewer stats overall, customization means being able to have just the right stats for your character layout and is the essence of minmaxing.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

jpariury said:
I disagree that making golems customizable is a nerf. While the cumulative stat card may be fewer stats overall, customization means being able to have just the right stats for your character layout and is the essence of minmaxing.
Thats reasonable on paper. I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.

Can you show me a Golem Build/Character Layout that is STRONGER than Quicksilver Soldier/X?

Stephen
National PR
 

jpariury

Duke
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

PM'ed you, since it reveals certain likely-to-occur plot elements locally. Now, the obvious counter would be that it doesn't work in some other chpater because the balance of likely effects/player psychology/etc. doesn't pan out the same way. That's rather the point. Being able to customize to the regions you most often play is a significant increase in power.
 

Lunchbond

Newbie
Seattle Staff
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

RiddickDale said:
jpariury said:
I disagree that making golems customizable is a nerf. While the cumulative stat card may be fewer stats overall, customization means being able to have just the right stats for your character layout and is the essence of minmaxing.
Thats reasonable on paper. I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.

Can you show me a Golem Build/Character Layout that is STRONGER than Quicksilver Soldier/X?

Stephen
National PR
I would take this build for a celestial templar/tank over a quicksilver soldier. Pretty sure a Templar in this guy could take a quicksilver soldier in a fight, too. ;)

+75 body (total 125) - 6 pts
+8 strength - 16 pts
Half from weapons - 18 pts
Healed by lightning - 6 pts
Resist magic x 6 - 18 pts
Silver carrier - 1 pt
 

Hammerfist

Artisan
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

While you may be able to customize to fit your region. Doesn't it at the same time force a bit of a shift in thinking that may not be a bad thing? A player can no longer walk into a fight and go "Oh look it an <insert Golum here> use the following <insert method here> to kill it." Instead it is promoting a use of many skills and effects to determine the streanghts and weaknesses of each foe. In essence it is encouraging players to work together to be more effective against an enemy. The same goes for intelligent groups of NPC's.
 
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Lunchbond said:
RiddickDale said:
jpariury said:
I disagree that making golems customizable is a nerf. While the cumulative stat card may be fewer stats overall, customization means being able to have just the right stats for your character layout and is the essence of minmaxing.
Thats reasonable on paper. I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.

Can you show me a Golem Build/Character Layout that is STRONGER than Quicksilver Soldier/X?

Stephen
National PR
I would take this build for a celestial templar/tank over a quicksilver soldier. Pretty sure a Templar in this guy could take a quicksilver soldier in a fight, too. ;)

+75 body (total 125) - 6 pts
+8 strength - 16 pts
Half from weapons - 18 pts
Healed by lightning - 6 pts
Resist magic x 6 - 18 pts
Silver carrier - 1 pt
Don't see it. The quick silver heals just as effectively, has more body, for more offensive options and phases instead of resists. Now if you're talking about spirit store only in the built one, then maybe, sure. But that hardly proves that the made one is better.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Lunchbond said:
RiddickDale said:
jpariury said:
I disagree that making golems customizable is a nerf. While the cumulative stat card may be fewer stats overall, customization means being able to have just the right stats for your character layout and is the essence of minmaxing.
Thats reasonable on paper. I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong.

Can you show me a Golem Build/Character Layout that is STRONGER than Quicksilver Soldier/X?

Stephen
National PR
I would take this build for a celestial templar/tank over a quicksilver soldier. Pretty sure a Templar in this guy could take a quicksilver soldier in a fight, too. ;)

+75 body (total 125) - 6 pts
+8 strength - 16 pts
Half from weapons - 18 pts
Healed by lightning - 6 pts
Resist magic x 6 - 18 pts
Silver carrier - 1 pt
No disrespect intended, but I'm not sold on that build. What would you do (other than rez) if I spammed stun limbs/130 slays until I burn your 3-4 parries and eviscerated you with a normal weapon?

Or if My 8 block wife chucks 80 elemental flame packets into your dome until you are dust?

Or worse... what is we did both?

Sure you swing 10s and can be healed... But, both of the above scenarios we're easily handled by the Quicksilver soldier. You're build doesn't. (Also... I think Quicksilver soldiers are immune to silver... and since you can't pull carriers on claws... you better have a weapon to swing.)

Stephen
 

jpariury

Duke
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

I don't think it's bad that you don't necessarily know what you're facing. But I do think that the combination of what is available and being able to customize based on both regional influences and your own stat card and habits leads to a significant increase in power.

Added with permission, from the PM discussion:
RiddickDale said:
Ok I stand corrected.

That's beast.

I bow down.
Yay!
 

Lunchbond

Newbie
Seattle Staff
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

RiddickDale said:
No disrespect intended, but I'm not sold on that build. What would you do (other than rez) if I spammed stun limbs/130 slays until I burn your 3-4 parries and eviscerated you with a normal weapon?
Pin you and kite you, chain cast magic armors.

RiddickDale said:
Or if My 8 block wife chucks 80 elemental flame packets into your dome until you are dust?
Dodge those packets and (paraphrasing) "spam stun limbs and slays"

RiddickDale said:
Or worse... what is we did both?
Well that's a bit outside of my understanding of the scenario, what would a Quicksilver soldier do in that case (other than res)? I understood the question was Quicksilver soldier/X vs Created golem/character layout, not created golem/character layout vs multiple members of your team.
I still believe a created golem can be stronger, it can be tailored to the character and a more appropriate fit than the stock models. A player can compensate for areas where they are deficient and they don't have to worry about spending valuable points in an area they already have sufficient strength through skills/MIs.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

They can be better. WC JP proved it in his PM. I was bring critical of that build.

My comments were more pointing out the weaknesses that you left open that are closed by the QSS.

Resist magic vs Dodge.

Fewer Immunities to Elemental Damage (which just got a significant buff).

The advantage to the QSS is the virtual immunity to packets.
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Don't forget the lack of Phase. Unless you buy immunity to binding you're now pretty darn vulnerable to a web/eviscerate.
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

I would take this build for a celestial templar/tank over a quicksilver soldier. Pretty sure a Templar in this guy could take a quicksilver soldier in a fight, too.

+75 body (total 125) - 6 pts
+8 strength - 16 pts
Half from weapons - 18 pts
Healed by lightning - 6 pts
Resist magic x 6 - 18 pts
Silver carrier - 1 pt
One small problem with this example: you are 5 points over maximum possible! Where would you take that off and still be as effective?
 

jpariury

Duke
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Beverly Byers said:
I would take this build for a celestial templar/tank over a quicksilver soldier. Pretty sure a Templar in this guy could take a quicksilver soldier in a fight, too.

+75 body (total 125) - 6 pts
+8 strength - 16 pts
Half from weapons - 18 pts
Healed by lightning - 6 pts
Resist magic x 6 - 18 pts
Silver carrier - 1 pt
One small problem with this example: you are 5 points over maximum possible! Where would you take that off and still be as effective?
Healed by lightning is 12, not 6. He's 11 over.
 

Beverly Byers

Fighter
Traverse City Staff
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

True, good catch.
 

Lunchbond

Newbie
Seattle Staff
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Whoops, I was working off a 65 point max instead of 60 (misread the post) and I calculated incorrectly, double trouble. There are some things that could be dropped or swapped to make it more or less effective based on the players current skill/MI configuration but I think this sentiment is more important than hypothetical point allocations:
I still believe a created golem can be stronger, it can be tailored to the character and a more appropriate fit than the stock models. A player can compensate for areas where they are deficient and they don't have to worry about spending valuable points in an area they already have sufficient strength through skills/MIs.
 

phedre

Squire
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

No difference there in creating a golem or deciding which golem to make under the previous system... there were all sorts of special quirks about all the existing golems that made them desirable for some people.

And all the "I'm not as effective against undead" stuff? I'll still never be proficient at healing myself in my own body. And you have to get to a pretty high level to high magic yourself into a golem and have it be a more effective fighting style than an earth templar with equivalent items. (like a 20 rit +8 undead slayer, earth aura, spellstrike earth storms, activate healing and purifies, or whatever fits your fighting style).

You're talking about a style that starts to get effective at around 25th level... that's a lot of time put into the game, hopefully one that gives you a good time as that character. Forge if you think your character would, but remember that you might change all that build to make a golem that gets popped, and then what? You're out an item that will take you quite a while to rebuild, and meanwhile you've got the "wrong" build.
 
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