gypsies and chivalry

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Daviomac

Artisan
Howdy.

I play a gypsy, Raphael, who how to put it nicely, is a "good guy".

I was discussing with one of the owners last night about knighthood, chivalry and the like. He suggested that my character might do well in the miitary (a major plot hook in our chapter), and start moving up the social strata.

However, i'm not sure. My take on the Romani, as presented in the main rule book, makes them unlikely to blend into any type of fealty type system. Sure, play nice with the gorgio, etc, but swearing your word of honor to follow a gaje who you may never have met, seems... eh, kind of contrary to their nature. Not to mention those hideous uniforms, without a single drop of purple in them anywhere.


I've also seen chapters where there are titled gypsies, knighted gypsies, etc. I've always kinda wondered "what the hell" but never gave it much thoughts.

So, I'm kind of curious what's people's take on the matter.

Davio
 
To be honest with you, I am a little curious about this one myself. I just started playing, my character is gypsy, and I've been studying the race packet. It says that gypsies see titles and investments in guilds as a loose form of slavery. However, I know of one gypsy in particular who is a knight, and another who is going through the process of being invested in a guild.

My understanding is that they typically don't do these things, but if the character is a little different in some way, it might be acceptable?
 
Being part of a guild I wouldn't necessarily see ad being a problem for a Gypsy. The Knight thing is more out of the ordinary. however, it could be seen as a way to ensure others keep their freedom. Of course, it depends on the character's motivation.
 
My gypsy's family has history in the navy and there is a gypsy that plays in TC who *was* a knight. I think that it's bogus for gypsies to instantly bow and swear to nobility because they are nobility and also think that gypsy knights should be a rare thing and they should not seek power in the government unless it affects their family directly. Like in Briarpass where gypsies may be hunted like deer and are not protected beneath the laws. It would make sense for a gypsy to want to rise to some sort of power to end this.

My two copper.
 
Marcena said:
My gypsy's family has history in the navy and there is a gypsy that plays in TC who *was* a knight. I think that it's bogus for gypsies to instantly bow and swear to nobility because they are nobility and also think that gypsy knights should be a rare thing and they should not seek power in the government unless it affects their family directly. Like in Briarpass where gypsies may be hunted like deer and are not protected beneath the laws. It would make sense for a gypsy to want to rise to some sort of power to end this.

My two copper.
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Yeah... why would we want to protect the dirty gyppos? Its the kobolds we have to worry about here, anyways... :D
 
I can’t attest to how much it makes sense for gypsies to be nobles/military/guild in any particular chapter, because plot and race packets are all different.

Bottom line: If you still act like a Romani, and remain loyal to your familia, I see no problem with it. Is it uncommon for the Romani? Yes, and it should be, given what the rulebook says about the race. If your take on the rulebook makes your character uncomfortable with it, roleplay your character and do what he would do. But is it impossible? No. Is it playing your race poorly? Not necessarily. There are certainly some circumstances when it would make more sense than others: if your power can be (or needs to be) used to help the Romani people, if you know and trust the people you are swearing fealty to, etc.

Also, in the rulebook, it simply states that it is RARE for gypsies to swear fealty to anyone. However, I argue that adventurers are at least an uncommon breed anyway. By the time your Romani is out adventuring with gorgio instead of staying with their caravan, they are already breaking the norm, and exposing themselves to a world where things are vastly different from what they were told as a child.

My gypsy is also a good guy, and is actually quite chivalrous, though she’d never admit it. She used to try to avoid nobles; when that became impossible, she simply got them all to like and trust her instead. Most of her friends are nobles now. Her current vestacha is even an elven baron. But she would never squire or join the military. She has other ways of gaining influence.

However, in my chapter, we do have a Romani knight, several in guilds, and one in the military (“because the ladies love a man in uniform”), and my character has no qualms with any of them. They will not betray our people. And they are still very much Romani. These things are what really matters.

Sure, a Romani will never be a perfect knight, as they will always be at risk for divided loyalties, but let’s face it, how many nobles are perfect and have completely undivided loyalty?

Sorry I’m long-winded. I guess I put in my 4 copper.


Sheila

P.S. I don’t have an avatar yet, but if you’d like to see what my gypsy looks like, please see the rulebook under the racial description of “Gypsy.” (Boy, is that cocky or what?)
 
Alavatar said:
The only Gypsies I know with titles keep their bestowed titles because they sound fancy. "Warden of Truth" and "Sorcerer of the Split Sky" and such.
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*cough* Liar. ;) Gregor was a gypsy, he just got forcibly race-changed years after the fact by the Stregga.

In his case, he first became a knight by winning the title in a card game with a Baron, and it gave him access to the Baron's girlfriend. Plus, it was great fun when a common Magistrate would try and arrest him for some trumped up charge, and G would turn around and declare them as lacking the necessary authority. Later, he founded a minor nation-state and swore fealty to his people and a series of ideals (think Knights of Malta or the Templars). And eventually, he swore fealty to the Earth... for the race packet he derived from, it all worked out. He's never really sworn fealty to a noble (he had his fingers crossed the first time).

I don't know if you met Glorianna, but that's the other one I know of. Not sure her whys and wherefores.

My general thought is that you can do it, but it should cause issues. In Gregor's case, it's brought him in conflict with both the nobility and the local clans time and again. It has sometimes presented more danger and intrigue than your usual "monster X is on the rampage". It isn't, and shouldn't, always be easy.
 
Personally, I don't see gypsies having any sort of noble title. Gypsies by definition are wanderers and, as such, would not swear fealty to one nobleman to then protect his lands and people. It would require him to remain there for the rest of his life.
 
I agree to the point of swearing fealty to nobility and I also don't think that a gypsy would take kindly to "owning land". I take my gypsy's view on landownership from those of the native americans; that no one may really "own" something like the Earth. It's why she avoids land altogether because no one even tries to claim the ocean.
 
Personally, I say no way. Romani are way too loyal to their own people to ever swear fealty to a gadjo. Romani can certainly be chivalrous, upstanding citizens, but involving themselves that heavily in gadje affairs is going too far. Not to mention being a noble means defending one patch of land and rarely leaving it -- no freedom, no wandering, no life. I would argue they wouldn't serve in the military unless there was a draft, but I could see it happening more readily than the nobility. But then again, my character Irina's proud to the point of being racist, so my arguments reflect her perspective. She's friends with the Lady Knight Glorianna and respects her greatly, but Glori's motives are completely incomprehensible.
 
I actually find this thread, and their take on the gypsy mindset within our world, to be quite interesting.

I'm honestly of the camp that gypsies and barbarians should be humans with different role-playing, but that's just my two shekels (and a former anthropology major) speaking.

Davio
 
Daviomac said:
I actually find this thread, and their take on the gypsy mindset within our world, to be quite interesting.

I'm honestly of the camp that gypsies and barbarians should be humans with different role-playing, but that's just my two shekels (and a former anthropology major) speaking.

Davio
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That's how it used to be, but once they were given racial skills we had to list them separately in the database so they could get them -- otherwise you could have players deciding to be a gypsy one day and then renounce their gypsy heritage the next and then be one again next weekend, and so on...

If it weren't for the skills, they would just be humans. (In my Alliance based novels, they are, by the way.)
 
I kind of like the distinction between them. It is sort of like the 3 different "types" of elves. You have 3 different "types" of humans. The hard and fast distinction between gypsys, barbars, and humans is one rules element that encourages players to make stronger role playing choices and stick with them.
 
Dreamingfurther said:
I kind of like the distinction between them. It is sort of like the 3 different "types" of elves. You have 3 different "types" of humans. The hard and fast distinction between gypsys, barbars, and humans is one rules element that encourages players to make stronger role playing choices and stick with them.
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Agreed.
 
Fearless Leader said:
Daviomac said:
I actually find this thread, and their take on the gypsy mindset within our world, to be quite interesting.

I'm honestly of the camp that gypsies and barbarians should be humans with different role-playing, but that's just my two shekels (and a former anthropology major) speaking.

Davio
Click to expand...

That's how it used to be, but once they were given racial skills we had to list them separately in the database so they could get them -- otherwise you could have players deciding to be a gypsy one day and then renounce their gypsy heritage the next and then be one again next weekend, and so on...

If it weren't for the skills, they would just be humans. (In my Alliance based novels, they are, by the way.)
Click to expand...

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of Gypsies as a separate race for another reason. There are millions of Roma, Romani, Travellers, and assorted other ethnic and cultural groups in the US and in Europe from whom pop culture draws it's stereotypical 'Gypsies'.

As far as I know official or unofficial oppression of these peoples is still rampant, Roma and similar groups face significant discrimination from the state both from deeply rooted stereotypes and significant cultural differences, including lack of common language in many places. 'Barbarian', as a race, seems to be derived about half from Conan and half from the Gauls at the time of the Roman conquest of Germania. The Gauls are long dead, so appropriating a stereotype of their culture isn't likely to cause any harm, but the Roma are still around. The idea of "Gypsies" as beggars, thieves, rogues, and witches who caper about in flash clothes flirting and confounding everyone seems to come, at least in part, from negative stereotypes of the actual "Gypsy" culture that exists in a variety of places around the world. Parts of that stereotype have been used to justify crimes against humanity ranging from the kidnap of children from Roma homes by state officials to mass murder in a variety of pogroms throughout history.

To the best of my knowledge, due to differences in language, religious beliefs, a tendency towards a semi-nomadic lifestyle and a preference for travelling while performing a variety of skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled labors in order to earn income, The Roma, the Travellers, and others have had a very hard time integrating in modern society. These groups are subject to a higher incidence of poverty and an overall lower standard of living, along with a lack of access to education and state resources. It seems that many people aren't aware of the real origins of the fictional Gypsies. I feel it is important to know where the concept comes from, and to be sensitive of the real history of these peoples and cultures. [/diabtribe]

Thank you for reading my little diatribe. I offer these articles from Wikipedia to those who wish to expand their knowledge beyond my meager offering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/romani_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism
 
I kinda wonder about the question on acceptance of a gypsy knight. I mean really would a noble trust a gypsy enough to offer/accept fealty from a gypsy? Ultimately its a plot decision of course but I always felt the "downside" of being a gypsy is kinda underrepresented. Most other races (particularly bigoted Humans) don't see them as entirely trustworthy ya know.

In the end though I think it really comes down to the chapters racial packet if individual freedom is heavily valued by the gypsies (as it usualy is) then fealty would not be a good fit. If the local gypsy "code" is more about the bohemian Ideals of truth justice and romance it might work better.

Of course you could always try and get Knighted by the "gypsy king" :)
 
Haha!

You know you're a gypsy when getting crowned King is a bad sign! :p

My gypsy character is learning from a man, her hero, that nobility doesn't mean power. Think of "the Butcher" of Gangs of New York, except she's too sweet and young to realize just what he is yet. He owns the nobility of the country. He is reverently called "Il Mayori". She has sworn no official fealty to him, but he made her Ambassador of Salamis (his country).

So, you see, it is not impossible for gypsies to gain eventual power in a governmental heirarchy just because they don't swear oaths to anyone.
 
I play the NPC liege lord of Lady Glorianna and have for many years now, both as a squire and knight.

She is the noble that mosts frustrates Duke Frost, while at the same time is often the noble who does the greatest good. He finds her very exhausting to deal with, LOL.

Erica, who plays Glorianna, is very aware that being a gypsy in our noble system is very hard. Her character very often shoots herself in the foot to stay true to her gypsy nature. Her advancement as a noble is constantly two steps forward and one step back...and sometimes two steps back and one step forward. If she were playing another race, she would certainly "move up" faster in the system. It does, however, make for a lot of good roleplay and conflict, both amongst the nobles and surely in Glorianna's own mind.

So, to sum up my experience and observation, it's hard and can be frustrating for the individual and the other nobles. But it can be done. And it can be a lot of fun.

Scott
 
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