Lock Physreps

Traceroo

Traceroo

Rogue
I'd like to start an open discussion about preferences about the types of padlock physreps we use in this chapter.

Caveat: My primary character doesn't have Legerdemain, and never will. I am thinking of picking up the skill for my presently secondary character. I am intimidated by the recent trend in use of multi-tumbler lock physreps, however. Thus, I am rethinking on whether or not I want to go there with the skills I pick up.

I am a fan of using easy 1-tumbler locks in the game. I feel the like the real barriers to entry on getting through a lock challenge are:
  • Having the skill on your card which does not necessarily see frequent use at events overall
  • Having your tools on you when needed
It's still easy to raise the level of challenge in a locks encounter by doing things like:
  • Have more than 1 lock that needs to be picked
  • Add a physical challenge like having to climb under a bed, or stand on your tippy-toes, or bend around obstacles to pick the lock
  • Add the challenge of darkness for the rogue to bring their own light
  • Add a timer to the encounter
  • Harry the encounter with low-stats but repeating monster attacks
Bettering one's self and improving skill in this area can come from the following accomplishments:
  • Getting faster at picking the 1-tumbler locks
  • Learning to pick them with improvised and more simplistic tools
  • Building a reputation of reliability and being easy to find in-game when these skills are needed

Personally, I do not enjoy the challenge of multi-tumbler locks, or any lock which I will simplify in description as one which requires use of more than 1 tool to defeat. Fiddling with these things very quickly raises my quick sense of, "Wow, that was super easy!" thrill with 1-tumbler locks to, "Eff this, I'm outta here!" level of unhappy frustration -- That could be just me... which is why I'm starting this discussion, to find that out. :)

I'm interested to know how other players enjoy the more complicated locks. If the current population of rogues with the Legerdemain is into it -- consider me appeased! But if I'm not the only one who's looking at this with Elvis Face, will the game consider lightening up on these srs locksmith challenges?

Thanks for reading, and for your consideration,

Trace
 
I'm a fan of trick-difficulty. Like you said, combos of situational limitations that make an otherwise simple task hard. Want me to balance an apple on my head, while hopping on one foot, and fighting off 3 NPCs? I'm your man.

I am not a fan of an IG skill that requires me to spend piles of cash OOG on tools that break over time and may or may not be sufficient to deal with the Lock of the Day (tm). Any IG skill that requires me to spend hours learning OOG and costs me more money the more I screw up seems excessive.

That said, I like challenges...but keep them IG. Hopping between logs is a fair challenge for most PCs, because the average person can do it. Multi-tumbler locks is reaching the realm of "these few people can do it" and the rest of the people spending build on it are SOL. Worse yet, they're out OOG money on picks.

Definitely not a fan of the multi-tumbler locks, esp since they weren't on the approved list when they came in. I've had the skill for one event and seen exactly one lock, which was way harder than the approved lock list (at the time).

Just my 2cp worth.

Edit: Also worth noting, we're paying a crapton of build for this skill and any caster can just shatter most locks, bypassing the skill check anyway, which makes "really hard" locks even more absurd. :p
 
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Seeing as how I just snapped one of my lock picks (I will admit I am a newb and probably just put too much force) attempting a 4 tumbler lock, I am rather annoyed with the more difficult locks. I was excited about the idea of learning to pick locks but both the warded lock and the 4 tumbler are eluding me for consistency of pickability. And now it is a bit of a pain to have to keep purchasing locks so I know I can pick all of the ones in the game. Of course, there is the warning that approved locks may not be pre-announced so we get no time to learn and get to sit there with the chest and attempt to unlock them while everyone is staring at us. Or have to admit failure, which would suck seeing as how I have gotten to pick all of two locks in the year I have been playing.

I can understand wanting more difficult locks so we aren't popping them easily every time but it may just be too frustrating. Maybe wait a bit longer before introducing harder locks.
 
I am sorta new at this and am generally speaking from that position.

I like the idea of both trick complexity and lock complexity. However, I need to be able to deal with both with low tech tools. As I don't have a lot of money to spend most of my tools are handmade and "rough". If the lock or the trick require that I have a tool that I have to spend money on then it isn't my type of fun.

That being said the three locks I have faced in game were very simply dealt with once I understood what was going on. It is the understanding and experience that I lack, and that is what truly keeps me from the more advanced locks and such. I need more of a learning curve than I need a more advanced set of tools.

As for more advanced locks.. As long as they are not so far out of my learning curve there is no way I can do them, bring them on.
 
Im not ok with this new lock. Fighters get lots of additional skills and magic crap for combat as situations get more complicated. Mages get a rising skill tree to dfeal with increased difficulty situations. And everyone can buy combat and not-dieing skills to augment them not being their characters and thus their skills IC being cooler than what they are OOC. We (Rogues and those who specialize in this crap) already have to buy a skill to be able to do locks at all, have to have steady hands for dealing with traps, and carry more stuff to be prepared for the kind of situations we are speced for- and have no additional mechanical help past that. This is too much of a difficulty increase and is not representative of the ooc help other specialties receive through the system.
 
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That said. IF you create a system by wich not all lock-pickers are created mechanically equal (IE- reduction of lock type difficulty perhapse dependant on levels of ledgermain or something? - ooh, and reduction of damage or forgiveness from failure to undo a trap right maybe?), then we can talk : 3
 
I hear you're having challenges with this and agree that attacking new locks can be difficult. As a note: The lock in question is significantly easier than the other one and is actually easier than a 2 pin practice lock that I have at home which is not allowed. It barely requires a key and the skill is largely notational (it can be opened with a nail file in 10–15 seconds, tools just make it easier and let you do it in less than 5). It was picked successfully by three separate people with three different levels of skill and practice. It can be picked with improvised tools (I got it open with a bobby pin and a standard tension wrench in about 8 seconds) or with professional tools that will run less than $10.

Most skills in this game are a mix of "hard" and "soft" skills. We've had requests to make lock picking a "harder" skill than "I brought a tool and can turn it." This doesn't mean that every lock will be such in the game—I like to say I prefer a 50-30-15-5 distribution, where 50% are trivial and going up from there—but it also means that locks aren't "gimmes" and you really should have some set of tools you are comfortable with.

I am happy to sit down and teach anyone how to open any lock that appears in the game if there are concerns.
 
Well. The people who have been doing this stuff, in this game, arent happy and are presenting you with why. You're good at lock picking and like doing it at this level... most of us dont come from the same viewpoint : /
 
This may help if you do have a set: Video of the lock being picked. I don't have a video using improv tools yet, but this illustrates a little bit of the "how."

The tools used are professional tools but are relatively easy to find instructions for how to build your own or they can be purchased for between $2 and $5 each: they are (in order) a triple peak rake (also called a triple bogota, which is a specific variation of such), a worm rake, a double peak (also called called a double bogota, both the double and triple peak are also sometimes just referred to as the "bogota rake"), and a half diamond.

Picking it with a bobby pin is a similar principle: Take a bobby pin and fold it out and make sure any extra plastic bits on the end (which will keep it from entering the lock) are cut off. It can then be used as a single pick or as a rake in combination with your standard tension wrench (I used the same one I'd use to open any of the diary locks in game). I find it useful to do some rebending on the bobby pin if it is in a non-cooperative shape.
 
Its good you are willing to help, its good that you are gonna be a font of info- thats actually super important if you are going to push this.

But you are missing the point man. Many of us are not interested in learning these skills further than what we expected to from the demands of the rulebook. i know you like lock picking, Like, i get it, its a cool skill and I am sure fun for some. I already have to go to fighter practice to learn enough combative skill to stay alive with a polearm. I already have to go back to the gym to get my endurance up and keep it up (and no matter what neither will be as good as some). I am not my character, but I already have a lot of demands from this game on me that make it so I -must- match those OOC abilities to the IC componenet or I functionally cant play what I want (yes everyone does). What you are presenting is not fun to me and I will probably just start stocking stuff to destroy locks like this rather than pick them.

I have a skill on my sheet- its expensive and a lot of people do not buy it. If they do not buy it, they cannot at all address traps, or locks. Wich are common enough and kindof a big deal in the game in different ways. I can do it, those other people cannot, and that is the divider in the mechanical end of this issue. I dont think its fair to say that haveing that skill basically means nothing )even if only in certain circumstances), if I dont pick up the extra ooc ability that you are asking me to when we all pay the same amount of build for said skill. Thats like saying someone buying dodge also has to learn to dodge extra awsome ooc and have the IC call, for it to work (even if it is for only particular things).
 
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Thank you all for the open dialogue and communication of your concerns, desires, and frustrations. Continued feedback is how we make a better game!

The lock policy is an evolving one that is going to be somewhat a process of trial and error, by necessity, as we attempt to balance the needs and wants of a diversity of players to maximize benefit and enjoyment. As with many components of our game, we are striving to find that place where challenge and fun and reward (intrinsic or extrinsic) meet.

Please bear with us as we work on these policies, and thank you for engaging with and providing feedback on it thus far! Continued feedback is, as always, much appreciated.
 
From the perspective of the rules:

ARB p. 146, on Legerdemain:
"Legerdemain is the Game Ability needed to arm and disarm traps and pick locks. You must have this skill in order to even attempt doing these things."
"...You may use your own locks in-game with permission of your local game so long as you can prove the lock is pickable."
Click to expand...

ARB p. 148, on Securing Your Cabin:
"If you want to put a lock on a door, you must either use an approved lock or you must use your own lock after getting it approved by a marshal. Generally speaking, if you can demonstrate that you can pick your lock, then it will probably be allowed."
Click to expand...

Now, the subjective piece is this, in ARB p. 148, which is the point I think everyone is debating on (because what defines "easy to pick" and "very difficult"?):
"Remember though that we prefer easy to pick locks, as it is the in-game skill itself that is supposed to be used and not the out-of-game skill of actually picking a very difficult lock. Combination locks are not allowed to be used by players but may be found in modules (where part of the module is discovering the combination)."
Click to expand...
While the general rule-of-thumb people have given in the various forum discussions on this topic over the years is "demonstrably pickable in 15-30 seconds", and this is a good general guideline, there has been no ARC ruling that I can find on what "easy to pick" means.

However, the rest of the rulebook seems to imply that lockpicking is not a "gimme" skill like Dodge, as it encourages practice with lockpicking and learning it as an OOG skill, as quoted below. (For example, the ARB p. 146 quote above saying that you must have legerdemain in order to even attempt picking locks - not that you will automatically succeed at picking the lock.) It is like needing some OOG skill in arming/disarming traps, or needing OOG skill in combat to be an effective fighter, or needing to be able to remember spell incants and be able to hit a target with a spell packet as a caster.

ARB p. 23, on Playing a Thief:
"Practice when you can. Buy a few cheap locks, get your tools, and work at picking the damn things as you watch TV. Get to the point where it comes completely naturally."
Click to expand...

ARB p. 23, on scrolls to invest in when playing a thief:
"Shatter: To destroy unpickable locks."
Click to expand...

ARB p. 24, on Playing a Thief:
"Lockpicks: Obviously, right? It is always surprising how many thieves bring nothing and somehow expect the locks to open themselves. The best thing is to have a key ring with a series of lockpicks."
Click to expand...

ARB p. 19, suggestions for starting your own plots:
"Start a school. Every player needs other players to teach them skills they need. Maybe you can train people in real skills as well as game skills. It is one thing to teach someone the in-game skill Legerdemain but it is another thing entirely to teach them out-of-game how to pick locks and disarm traps."
Click to expand...

All said - it is also true that "easy to pick" and "difficult to pick" are immensely subjective and there's a wide range of gray area in between the two. What's easy for one person might be difficult for another. This is why we will continue eliciting feedback and evaluating the lock policy, adjusting it over time.
 
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Having tried (well, done; there is no try) the lock that llywelyn is talking about, I can confirm that it's quite a lot easier -- and also more fun -- than one might think from hearing off the bat that it's a multi-tumbler lock. I'd really encourage folks to give it a try before concluding that it's too difficult. When I tried it, the thing popped open essentially from my poking investigatively at it, and feeling it pop open in my hand was deeply satisfying. Much more so than the catch-operated diary locks, which I personally don't find very rewarding.

As far as increasing challenge through creative placement of locks and introducing physical stunts, I'm in favor of that also, but I'm also honestly a bit baffled by the assertion that such physical challenges are always more accessible even than learning how to pick locks generally, much less the sorts of locks that are being introduced. I'd personally have a lot of fun picking a lock that's inside a lazy susan cabinet module that is itself up a tree, were it not that I suspect my involvement in that scenario would be as the poor fool who had to PUT it there, but I also run obstacle races, disassemble people's kitchens for fun, and can hold a rifle with both elbows on the ground while sitting in a cross-legged position. I've got physical attributes that make that class of tasks easier, some of which are intrinsic and some of which took a lot of work to acquire -- a fair bit than more than picking that lock, beyond that even more than fixing my throwing enough to be a functional archer -- that I notice as not being universal. Realistically speaking, some people are going to be left out by that sort of thing as well -- more, I would say, than can't acquire the skill to open that lock with some casual practice given the presence of average (or even fairly below-average, coupled with interest and the willingness to invest effort) fine-motor skills. Which is fine. Not everything has to work for everyone. But increasing the diversity of challenges gives more people the opportunity to find a useful niche that appeals to them and works with their particular talents.
 
People have been trying it with VERY mixed results. Joelle already said she broke rakes on it. If we say a lock is 100% ok because one or two people can pick it, the rest of us are demeaned by that and honestly have no wish to continue trying. Hell, if we wanted to be truly elitist, our chapter has a professional lockpicker...have him try the locks for what's "fair and easy."
 
I suppose the proof will be in the pudding. Either we are right and its lame as an addition to the game and only like... 2 people who play PCs regularly can consistently get them open. Or we're wrong. But you guys need to listen to us when we get those results to you verbally. Theres a defensiveness of this decision that I dont like.

Time will tell.
 
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I don't pick locks and have no idea what the degree of difficulty is on the in question locks. I'd like to see more simple locks in game to reward PCs that have taken those skills. Additionally, I love seeing rendered locks and other reasons to encourage someone with Legerdemain rather than just shatter or destroy.

That said I like there being a wide variety of challenge levels to tasks in game. If every player and every character can do every thing in game I don't personally find that fun. Where is the satisfaction of a challenge overcome if literally anyone with the skill can do it regardless of if they have practiced or not. I'd be very happy to see mostly very simple locks to reward players with the skill, but occasionally a few difficult locks to reward players that have practiced the skill.
 
I would agree...IF we weren't having to use tools that add up in cost FAST. Would you want to be a fighter if you had to build a new weapon rep every event because the details of how they're supposed to be built changed? That's kinda what we're dealing with is an OOG cost to keep using an IG skill.
 
Graham Wolsey said:
Where is the satisfaction of a challenge overcome if literally anyone with the skill can do it regardless of if they have practiced or not. I'd be very happy to see mostly very simple locks to reward players with the skill, but occasionally a few difficult locks to reward players that have practiced the skill.
Click to expand...

That is indeed the goal.

Of course, again, figuring out what is "challenging" and what is "too difficult" is a matter of trial and error, as we're finding here. Certainly the lock in question is under review as to its level of difficulty, which based on player experiences may be higher than initial tests seemed to indicate. We'll continue to evaluate and review it due to this feedback.

Like David said, the plan is for the majority of the locks in game to be the diary lock level of difficulty, with more challenging locks used sparingly (and generally with multiple options for getting around them).
 
After chatting with people and seeing all the "it's SUPER easy" vs "it's impossible"...I'm wondering if maybe this lock varies a HUGE amount from one to the next. Might be something to look into.
 
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