Necromancy and Repercussions

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Same problem the IG authorities have. Is taking out that popular PC who is a dirty necromancer worth the risk that the Adventurers (ie the playerbase) will just throw a coup?
This quote made me think....

1. Do PCs get treated differently than NPCs when necromancy is involved?

2. Are there chapters where this is legitimately a concern? Where enforcement of laws against necromancy is bent because a PC simply has too much popularity to be punished?

3. If such an issue exists, is this a decision being made by Characters or by Players?
 

phil90

Artisan
Marshal
1. Do PCs get treated differently than NPCs when necromancy is involved?

I've only seen different treatment depending on the situation and which PC is involved not because they are PC or NPC.
For example some PC/NPC will punish necromancy but others will accept it if it was used in a way that benefit them.

2. Are there chapters where this is legitimately a concern? Where enforcement of laws against necromancy is bent because a PC simply has too much popularity to be punished?

I did not noticed a difference because of popularity. However, there was one time where there was a big misunderstanding with our Guild mistress. Where it was understood that everything was allowed. It turned out it was not correct. The PC went to trial and there were consequences. The Guild was nice enough to be forgiving due to the misunderstanding.

3. If such an issue exists, is this a decision being made by Characters or by Players?
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
In the time I've played Polare, I've both (a) executed "popular" PCs for Necromancy, and (b) given non-resurrection-but-still-heavy-consequences to NPCs (see the last Nationals for a great example of this).

In general, I can't say that I see this as a huge issue on a National level. There are enough anti-Necromancy zealots among the PCs to keep things relatively honest. When I know (IG or OOG) of PCs casting Necromancy, they recognize that doing so openly is liable to result in one or more resurrections, whether it's from other PCs or NPCs, no matter what their rank or station. This experience spans multiple chapters over many years, so I think it's reasonably representative.

I'm not saying that Necromancy is always punished. It shouldn't be if it's done quietly and hidden well, that's the whole point of "trying to get away with something"! But I've seen many, many examples of Necromancers - PC, NPC, whatever - being punished for their efforts when caught.

Muir, this is something you've brought up on multiple occasions on these boards - that PC Necromancers aren't punished, or are punished inconsistently. I would strongly recommend bringing up complaints about this sort of thing to the staff of the Chapter in which it has occurred, assuming this is a recent thing. If you can give some *specific recent examples* of this being a National-wide occurrence, it's something we need to take a look at on a National level. If your only examples are things that happened many years ago or only in a single instance, I'd encourage you to try reexamining the issue with an open mind as to whether it's really as much of an issue as you have made it out to be in many, many postings on these boards.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC Chair
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
I've never seen a sneaky NPC necromancer. A lot of time the NPC necromancer is just a BBG that PCs kill and search. I've never even seen an NPC necromancer put on trial - I guess there has never been any question about guilt.

PC necromancers sometimes get a trial but I have also seen them executed (by NPCs or PCs) without a trial. So sure PCs are different than NPCs. Other than Harvest Moon back in the 90s, PCs don't openly play BBGs. If PCs want to do something naughty, they usually try not to get caught. So comparing NPC vs PC necromancers seems difficult to me - they have different roles in the story.
 
I've seen both PC and NPC necromancers put on trial and also killed outright in several different situations and scenarios.

1. Do PCs get treated differently than NPCs when necromancy is involved?
Yes and no. PCs treat any character that they have known for more than 10 minutes differently. If the necromancer is someone who they know and has been around town, regardless of them being a PC or NPC, the moral question of "how do we handle this?" becomes a lot more complicated than it is when some NPC nutjob is out in the woods making zombies and attacking the town. SF's current campaigns focus really heavily on having every random townsperson having a clear background and character, as well as making them ongoing like PCs for when no mods are going on/you're taking a break- it has made it immediately obvious that once PCs care about NPCs, their responses become very, very different.
Since usually the characters we meet for any length of time are PCs, it artificially makes it seem that PCs are treated differently.

2. Are there chapters where this is legitimately a concern? Where enforcement of laws against necromancy is bent because a PC simply has too much popularity to be punished?
I've never seen it.

3. If such an issue exists, is this a decision being made by Characters or by Players?
Again never seen it, but here is my issue with players casting necromancy as a *character background* or in a non-serious situation: It's customer service nightmare OOG no matter what you do. It requires reverse-meta and it's just... blech. If the players' intent is to get caught to create intrigue it is best for them to not mention it OOG to anyone. Otherwise it opens up the sticky pit of metagaming.
It's just messy when it's not done well.
 

OrcFighterFTW

Spellsword
1. Do PCs get treated differently than NPCs when necromancy is involved?

2. Are there chapters where this is legitimately a concern? Where enforcement of laws against necromancy is bent because a PC simply has too much popularity to be punished?

3. If such an issue exists, is this a decision being made by Characters or by Players?
1. Not that I've seen. Once outed as a necromancer, there are consequences. My primary PC was executed and fined 10 Gold for aiding and abetting necromancy for the mere suggestion of using it during a mod, after a quick trial. He can't even Read & Write.

2. Not that I know of in SoMN or Chicago.

3. I believe the players agree to the rules and accept the consequences of their character's actions. This is a pretty cut and dry issue with many texts in the rulebook to back it up. Necromancy is illegal and punishable in all chapters.
 
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Jovunn

Adept
Gettysburg Staff
1. Do PCs get treated differently than NPCs when necromancy is involved?
I would say yes, but that the extent to which they are treated differently depends on the chapter (does it have a lot of "grey area" PCs already?) and the way the PC behaves (the megalomaniac vs. the guy who has very definitely done necromancy but is making a show of redemption).
I am doing the latter of those two behavior options and have been... shockingly accommodated by PCs who know some of what I have done and would probably behave super differently toward Big Bad NPC Necromancer. Throwing up your arms and crying "cultural differences!" helps a lot, too.

2. Are there chapters where this is legitimately a concern? Where enforcement of laws against necromancy is bent because a PC simply has too much popularity to be punished?
Maybe? I kind of think that could be a cool plot opportunity - let PCs investigate whether the local nobility/whatever is corrupt.
I was in a situation where I was being tried and other PCs were given the opportunity to testify and sway the local law's judgement - it was actually really cool?

3. If such an issue exists, is this a decision being made by Characters or by Players?
I would say players are the ones who choose what to do and what not to do. As long as staff follow the national guidelines re: necromancy, I guess what players do is sort of their prerogative.

Tangential to #3: Are PC nobles breaking the national rule re: necromancy if they do not police it?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Tangential to #3: Are PC nobles breaking the national rule re: necromancy if they do not police it?
I'd say no, because this is ultimately a responsibility on the hands of Plot. I'd say it would be more accurate to say that PC nobles are free to do what they want, but Plot is required to ensure consequences occur to the PC nobles for doing so. Being nobility feels sorta OOGish/IGish to me, in the sense that the player should understand that certain expectations are held in order to maintain the theme of the world. So...I'd say that if a PC noble was openly not policing necromancy, and Plot ignored it, then Plot is breaking the rules, as would be the owner.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
I'd say no, because this is ultimately a responsibility on the hands of Plot. I'd say it would be more accurate to say that PC nobles are free to do what they want, but Plot is required to ensure consequences occur to the PC nobles for doing so. Being nobility feels sorta OOGish/IGish to me, in the sense that the player should understand that certain expectations are held in order to maintain the theme of the world. So...I'd say that if a PC noble was openly not policing necromancy, and Plot ignored it, then Plot is breaking the rules, as would be the owner.
I would disagree. Not policing it as a Noble who is suppose to uphold the "laws of the land" means they are not being true to being a Noble. Honestly, if PC's are not policing Necromancy, I would say they are accessories to using it. Just as PC's understand using necromancy is illegal Alliance wide and results in death, I would say being a PC Noble comes with the understanding that you will punish necromancy as the laws dictate (IG and OOG).

Unless you are pursuing being a corrupt Noble... Then do what you wanna do.
 
I turned in members of my own court, one of them being Jonothan's fiance at the time, for necromancy and conspiracy to commit for trying to cover it up. The fiance was one of the conspirators who wanted to keep a friend from being put to death "for a mistake".
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I would disagree. Not policing it as a Noble who is suppose to uphold the "laws of the land" means they are not being true to being a Noble. Honestly, if PC's are not policing Necromancy, I would say they are accessories to using it. Just as PC's understand using necromancy is illegal Alliance wide and results in death, I would say being a PC Noble comes with the understanding that you will punish necromancy as the laws dictate (IG and OOG).
But this seems more of a violation of the bylaws, which...I don't think are enforceable to an individual player's actions?
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
It's a violation of the bylaws only if it is the owner doing such, since the bylaws are not public? I can't speak on the bylaws as they are private.

It's a violation of the rules as it is written in the rules, and only if its not made illegal. Enforcing laws I guess wouldn't be a violation of the rules. But that should have IG reprecussions from the local nobility/leadership. If at that point it's not enforced, then I would say that the rules were being broken by Plot, not players.

It took a minute to work out how I see this all interacting. :p
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I guess what I mean is....

PC Nobles are free to do what they want. Plot sorta isn't. Plot is required by the Powers That Be to make sure that nobility is acting accordingly. But it's not something that would be handled by Rules Marshals, I don't think.
 

Avaran

Baron
I guess what I mean is....

PC Nobles are free to do what they want. Plot sorta isn't. Plot is required by the Powers That Be to make sure that nobility is acting accordingly. But it's not something that would be handled by Rules Marshals, I don't think.
There are two things going on there, and the way to handle it is pretty clear; not so clear, it seems is what is happening.

1) PC nobles not enforcing in-game Necromancy laws - NOT against the rules. However, this should violet the in-game laws (and oaths of nobility), and therefore punishment should be done in-game - in whatever form is appropriate for the circumstance - being demoted, being resurrected, etc. As long as the in-game laws address necro as illegal, and have appropriate punishments, then it should be handled in-game as befits the story/campaign.

2) Per the ARB, Necromancy must be against the in-game laws; if THAT is not the case, then that is a rules issue and needs to be addressed OOG to set things properly in-game.
 
As someone that currently plays a PC that has been convicted of necromancy and resurrected for it - yes, this is enforced. NPCs definitely treat my PC differently because of the conviction, years after the punishment was levied.
 

Breten

Artisan
I took a beating at Nationals when Garridan was caught. I was being chased down by Ali as the were-panther and stopped and whipped a bunch of chaos crossbow bolts at her. Then later when Dave had put down Cory (Jax), a jumped in and hit him with I believe it was either some Assasinated 50 Chaos' or a Terminate Chaos to keep him from finishing off Garridan's friend Jax. Sadly, one of our own Earthweaver's overheard and confronted me. Then it was a bit of a debacle as my PC friend's stood over my body while players from other chapter's attacked. It was a pretty awesome moment, and the main reason I even bothered creating the weapon.

There was a trial when I returned and I took a death for it. It's on the Calgary Youtube channel here:

 
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Lurin

Duke
As someone that currently plays a PC that has been convicted of necromancy and resurrected for it - yes, this is enforced. NPCs definitely treat my PC differently because of the conviction, years after the punishment was levied.
Not Just NPCs <shakes his fist menacingly>

Trial seems like a fun continuation, That NPC and Jax had some rough dealings and I totally did not see the Chaos coming (ouch)
 
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