NERO Archery

Polare

Count
Good afternoon.

First off, let me give a short history lesson to those who have not played NERO more than 4 or 5 years. Before 8th edition, NERO had rules for using real bows. The specifications were generally around 30lb. pull max on the bows and specified what is essentially our current 'thrusting tips' on the end of an arrow (the head removed and the tip reinforced so the rod did not poke through).

In 7th edition, the choice was given for each chapter to allow either the existing boffer archery or packet archery. Very few used packet archery as it is decidedly inferior on a number of levels -- realism, immersion, range, etc.

In 8th edition, packet archery was made mandatory. A number of safety reasons have been cited for why boffer archery was removed. The majority of these dealt with two specific issues: First, that the shaft could snap and splinter. Second, that when the arrow hit something or someone and bounced backwards, the nock could impale another person and cause serious damage.

In the intervening years, a number of solutions have been found by other groups for these issues. Fiberglass shafts can be bought now that are virtually indestructable (far more so than melee boffer weapons, anyhow). And recently certain SCA chapters have been experimenting with "Anti-Penetration Devices" (APDs) which prevent the nock from penetrating someone on rebound:

http://www.northstararchery.com/apd.html

So, a question for those of the Seattle chapter: What remaining reasons do you see to keep boffer archery out of NERO? Do you see that there are other safety issues not yet resolved? Would it be worth pushing to have boffer archery reevaluated in the future?

I'm just looking for opinions here. I'm not about to show up with a bow at the next event, but I'm curious what people's thoughts are on the issue. Maybe everyone except me thinks packet archery is the greatest thing ever?

-Bryan
 
I would one like to see a form of Archery back in the game, however I see the safety advantages of packets. I played several years as an SCA archer... and a summer as an Archery instructor... so you can imagine I would love to whack someone at 75-100 yards again with a bow. There are many ways to prevent impale injuries and also several types of bow...

In regards to packet archery, I wouldn't mind seeing some longer range abilities that would make bows in NERO more like the counterpart of the real world they represent.

I would like NERO as a whole to look more heavily at Bows, Latex Weapons, and Latex/Plastic armors (plus the range of various reps in between those categories, like shields and what not)

Science and fun have intermingled in the past few years to create some new options like you pointed out.

~B

 
Well, I do like the idea of better ranged arrows but.. I worry about ablity to hear the calls clearly. I would defenetly want to test it out a bit. also in the old rules, how did this effect crossbows and blocking with bows in close combat?
 
Yes, but have you been following the debate on the APD's on the SCA side? They don't like them because they cut the range of the weapon and make the arrow do wierd things in flight. Combine that with the thrusting tip requiorements and you won't have a whole lot of range left on the weapon. Farther than most people can throw, surely, but far less than the weapon would reasonably have.

One would also have to look at what the increase in mass would do to the impact on the player struck as well as the safety issues involving innacurate archers. While packets do hurt when they hit an eye socket, I can see increased problems with something coming from even a 30 pound bow.

Lastly on the archery issue, there would need to be constant inspection of arrows to ensure that the shafts are not poking through the thrusting tip. I would recomend looking farther into the SCA combat archery and modifying the tips you can find there to have the thrusting tip requirements attached... of course all of this is moot because I seriously doubt it will change.

As to Latex weapons, they were reviewed in the recent past and bounced. plastic armor is, of course, legal, just won't get you full points.
 
As to blocking: There were various implementations of this across chapters and even marshals. Mainly there were three rulings: (1) You simply can't block with a bow or crossbow; (2) A hit on a bow or crossbow 'disarms' it, or (3) A hit on a bow or crossbow 'shatters' it.

Dave :

Any options would definitely need to be examined. And, as you note, nobody should be expecting to shoot a boffer arrow across a soccer field. That said, there *is* a huge increase in range compared to packets, even with the APDs (at least from the comments I've seen; I have not personally seen them in use).

From my view, I still see a number of safety issues. Mostly they involve the bows and crossbows themselves -- a crossbow physrep, if accidentally dropped or knocked out of someone's hand in combat, could do some nasty things to the side of someone's unprotected calf. On the other hand, there are other possibly dangerous objects regularly carried in hands in combat ranging from potion bottles to rocks (actual rocks for some things, not boffer rocks) to chairs to glass cider bottles. In the end, I don't see that this is an insurmountable issue. Another problem is the actual force of an arrow hitting. If shot point-blank, arrows can have significant force. This might be the kicker that would keep them (if fairly judged, which I don't think they would be) from being brought back to NERO.

Arrows would need to be inspected as any other weapon. Properly reinforced, they have no more likelihood of pushing through a tip than any other boffer weapon.

I agree that things will probably not change. I find it unfortunate that NERO rules are stuck very far back on a number of issues ranging from safety issues (they are woefully out of date in some areas) to balancing issues to LARP "rules technology" that has advanced far beyond what people are willing to see change. As for arrows and latex weapons, I can't fault the NERO rules committee for being conservative and sticking to the things which are safer. I do, however, think that the judgement on some of these issues are faulty -- latex weapons, for example, I do not feel were fairly judged. There are certain manufacturers who produce latex weapons with thrusting tips that are safer than the average home-built boffer weapons; there have been changes to boffer arrow technology; etc. etc. etc.

That's certainly something that NERO International is much, much better about with their regularly instituted standardized playtests. They're open to change and willing to see that other possibilities might work better than what they have.

-Bryan
 
Polare Lissenstine said:
As to blocking: There were various implementations of this across chapters and even marshals. Mainly there were three rulings: (1) You simply can't block with a bow or crossbow; (2) A hit on a bow or crossbow 'disarms' it, or (3) A hit on a bow or crossbow 'shatters' it.

That pretty much runs the gambit that I've seen, although I have seen a few people try padding their bows and letting the wielder block with them. Didn't work out too great.


From my view, I still see a number of safety issues. Mostly they involve the bows and crossbows themselves -- a crossbow physrep, if accidentally dropped or knocked out of someone's hand in combat, could do some nasty things to the side of someone's unprotected calf. On the other hand, there are other possibly dangerous objects regularly carried in hands in combat ranging from potion bottles to rocks (actual rocks for some things, not boffer rocks) to chairs to glass cider bottles. In the end, I don't see that this is an insurmountable issue.

Agreed.

Another problem is the actual force of an arrow hitting. If shot point-blank, arrows can have significant force. This might be the kicker that would keep them (if fairly judged, which I don't think they would be) from being brought back to NERO.

Personally, I find this no different that arguing "You know, if you swung REALLY hard it might hurt a bit." Simply don't swing as hard/draw back as far.

As for arrows and latex weapons, I can't fault the NERO rules committee for being conservative and sticking to the things which are safer.

Has anyone ever seen an injury from an old-school NERO arrow? Not heard about a guy whose friend was almost injured, but actually seen it happen? I've heard lots of stories, but never actually met anyone that personally saw one actually happen. Surely the laws of probability would suggest that if it were so unsafe, I'd have seen it by now.

Instead, I've seen people get poked in the eye by a branch while running through the woods in the dark. I've seen torqued ankles from stepping in a gopher hole. People with sprained wrists from sliding on a icy bridges. Had a friend give himself a concussion and get ambulanced out because in a fit of panic he turned heel and bolted full speed into an oak tree that was two feet away. Have one fellow who goes to regular physical therapy because someone rushed him with a two handed hammer and bent him backwards over a standing mounted sundial. In the world of NERO injuries, the worst I've experienced is a knicked up hand from not wearing my archery glove. I'd even be willing to compromise and go to golf tube arrows.

Oo, maybe we should pad the entire campsite next event. You know... just in case. :)
 
jpariury said:
Instead, I've seen people get poked in the eye by a branch while running through the woods in the dark. I've seen torqued ankles from stepping in a gopher hole. People with sprained wrists from sliding on a icy bridges. Had a friend give himself a concussion and get ambulanced out because in a fit of panic he turned heel and bolted full speed into an oak tree that was two feet away. Have one fellow who goes to regular physical therapy because someone rushed him with a two handed hammer and bent him backwards over a standing mounted sundial. In the world of NERO injuries, the worst I've experienced is a knicked up hand from not wearing my archery glove. I'd even be willing to compromise and go to golf tube arrows.

Oo, maybe we should pad the entire campsite next event. You know... just in case. :)
I'm so up for padding the entire campsite. You didn't even give my failed attempt to use "cloak vs. barbecue" at the Oregon event an honorable mention....

But I have to agree... I did 2-3 years of SCA archery without seeing an injury and another 2-4 years of NERO Archery without injury. However I have impaled someone on a two-handed bopher sword, seen several people clocked in the head with a fist/hilt combo rather than padding, and someone removed from game twice because of a spell packet to the eye...

I think safety has far less to do with it and resistance to change more of it.

~B
 
I have to agree that resistance to change is a major factor in the stale nature of the NERO system. However, another factor that is not getting much mention is that *someone* has to propose changes in order for them to get made. Threads like this one are great for getting ideas flowing, but without solid written proposals that are backed by testing and widespread support, nothing is going to come of it.

Another factor is that changes to the rules system can have serious effects that may not be readily apparent at first. Some things that need to be considered are:

Does this change affect the dynamics of NERO combat? If so, how?
Does this change affect play balance? (this is a HUGE one)
Does this change affect the overall safety of the game?
Does this change have an affect on roleplay and/or world continuity?
Could this change potentially create a logistically difficult situation?
Does this change have the potential to affect the game in other, less immediately noticible ways?

Basically, if there is something you don't like about the NERO system, then write up a proposal to change it and submit it to us. As long as it is well thought out and gives explicit consideration the above factors, we'll be happy to submit it to the Alliance on your behalf.

-Dan
 
well since the door is open, my answers.

Does this change affect the dynamics of NERO combat? If so, how? Very much so, any change in range will make the bow/crosbow the longest range attack IG. Even being able to hit at 2 times throwing range will change combat tatics.
Does this change affect play balance? (this is a HUGE one) If you cant block with the bow/crossbow then it may balance out. If you can block, then it makes bows much more effective, but also OOC more expensive. At least I think a 30LB bow with very padded arrows would cost more than normal nero legal bows and arrow packets.
Does this change affect the overall safety of the game? Hard to say for sure. But I think with the right care, I can see it being just as safe, or almost as safe. However it will not be safer.
Does this change have an affect on roleplay and/or world continuity? Not to much, but the change in combat tatics and use, may change some of the RP around bow users themselves.
Could this change potentially create a logistically difficult situation? Actally, it would make it much easyer to keep track of arrows and arrows used.
Does this change have the potential to affect the game in other, less immediately noticible ways? Yes actally.. if you cant block with a bow/crossbow, and you have the same LB limit, and must actally fire the arrow, what is the effictive diffrence between a crossbow and a bow. If none, then will crossbow/bow users be allow to make a one time change of their crossbow/bow tag and bolts/arrows or will they need to IG buy new ones? (Not a big deal, just off the top of my head.)
 
One thing to point out is that when bows/crossbows were changed from boffer archery to packet archery, these items WERE thought out and as I recall it was judged an improvement trading range for blocking, higher ammo capability, and faster (in most cases) firing. It was felt archery was too weak beforehand, but packet archery supposedly brought the balance in line. Note that there was also a +1 to base damage for bows thrown in about that time, though I don't recall it specifically being attached to the changeover. Thus, no proposal would be fair unless it kept play balance (which would require an additional "buff" for boffer archery compared to packet archery).

Dan, while I agree with what you're saying, I would be much happier about submitting such a proposal if I felt there was the slightest glimmer of hope that a change could happen. But AFAIK NERO Alliance does NOT have a playtest structure in place for rules changes -- the rules change is looked over by the rules committee and decided in *complete absence* of physical evidence; hearsay of the sort "my friend heard of someone who had a bad experience with arrows" is given as much weight as a well written proposal. Chapters are NOT ALLOWED to playtest changes such as latex weapons or boffer archery even if they wanted to. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If NERO Alliance does in fact have a way to playtest things in a manner which is fair to both the idea and the status quo, then I'd be much more excited about participating in a process which, quite frankly, from my experience is horribly archaic and far from fair.

-Bryan
 
I have seen the SCA arrows in use, and have shot them. The little plasticky part at the end does cut the range, and the padding does to. They're clumsy, but still hit pretty hard. It would be really cool to have the range, but I really wouldn't want to hurt anybody with them, and there is a chance to hurt when you're firing sticks at people.

What ya gotta remember above all is that these people are shooting at people with full armor, and our PCs would be shooting at NPCs in cotton tabards.
 
We are not allowed to run sanctioned playtests of proposed skills at our games. However, if you are attempting to write a proposal, you are welcome to organize your own playtest away from the game.

The important thing to keep in mind is that your proposal must account for these things at the time of submission; all playtesting should be done prior to submission and the results (both positive and negative) should be covered in depth as a part of the proposal.
 
Shikar al'Basteua said:
We are not allowed to run sanctioned playtests of proposed skills at our games. However, if you are attempting to write a proposal, you are welcome to organize your own playtest away from the game.

The important thing to keep in mind is that your proposal must account for these things at the time of submission; all playtesting should be done prior to submission and the results (both positive and negative) should be covered in depth as a part of the proposal.
So that brings up the open question, does anyone have, or can make, the style bow talked about here? If someone does, then we can round up some people and test it out, and use that as a proposal. (Not really as gung ho as I sound, I also want to see how this all works for anything I want to propose.:) But more than willing to help a bit)
 
Alright then, Dan, I'll take you up on that.

By September I will bring either (a) at least 2 30-lb pull bows and a number of boffer arrows or (b) at least two thrust-safe latex weapons. I'll pick an event to come several hours early and will run playtests with anyone who is able, with several people on hand to witness and write their own views. I will then round up accounts and set up a proposal.

I'd love to do it earlier if able, but I don't know if I'll have the supplies (plus the fact that for the latex weapons especially I will be putting down a considerable amount of cold hard cash to try this out).

-Bryan
 
Shikar al'Basteua said:
We are not allowed to run sanctioned playtests of proposed skills at our games. However, if you are attempting to write a proposal, you are welcome to organize your own playtest away from the game.

I think that's kind of the problem, though. Basically, the official Alliance line is "We don't want to try it out, but if you have a good experience with it elsewhere, let us know!".

The point of live playtests during game is to test the functionailty overtime, in a live, actual-use environment. Getting together on a Saturday and beating on one another for a few hours doesn't emulate the same level of consistent wear and tear that a couple of months of being stored in my gym locker, back of Holly's truck, taken out for sparring, being left by the heater, and all the other foibles of life that occurs.

For instance, during a practice of session between Adam Garner and I of a much more non-NERO rough and tumble padded sparring session, we found that Amalie's kitespar core weapon with black padding not only endured hits far harder than would be allowed in NERO, but it could literally cleave through a traditional PVC weapon built according to the guidelines of the NERO rulebook. As well, I Adam's fingers black, blue, and swollen when the kitespar/traditional black foam weapon that is Amalie's sword blew through a foam knuckle card and shattered the bamboo core of another former Seattle-built weapon.

The weapon that caused the least amount of pain and OOG injury, endured the heaviest of hits, etc? Flatblade, kitespar core. No injuries, no complaints about hits, and boy howdy were we swinging hard.

But none of that means anything really, in terms of NERO use. Because the situations in which they were used were, to some extent, contrived, and ultimately, fresh weapons tested for one purpose and one purpose only don't emulate a live-environment over an extended period of time.

If I were to propose anything, it would be allowing playtests. I'll work on a proposal in proper proposally kinda thing.
 
jpariury said:
If I were to propose anything, it would be allowing playtests. I'll work on a proposal in proper proposally kinda thing.
Sounds like a plan. Write up a proposal about offical playtesting and the enviorment that may be used for that. I know that I would love to be able to be able to playtest ideas in a game enviorment, but not have them effect the actall gameworld (aka no one gets any stuff, but a full test like a mod.)
 
Hi. I'm new to the boards here, but I have an idea of a substitute to the packet system currently in use.

I come from another LARP where we used bows and crossbows made of PVC or Fiberglass piping. We use elastic cords as pull strings and such and nagahide (spelling?) as bolts and arrows. This version of archery gives a good distance as well as great accuracy with the weapons if crafted correctly. It has been in use for a number of years and the only serious incident that I can think of was a guy's bow snapping in half and wracking him in a rather private location at full draw...

I have, and could bring to the next event I attend, a crossbow constructed this way. I also have some bolts left for it and could show anyone who would care how they fire and all that good stuff.
 
That would be really cooll, even if we just play around with it in the parking lot before the event starts. Just be sure to stash it back in your car before game starts so no one else spots it and thinks it's live IG and tries to shoot someone with it!
 
Solomon Maxondaerth said:
That would be really cooll, even if we just play around with it in the parking lot before the event starts. Just be sure to stash it back in your car before game starts so no one else spots it and thinks it's live IG and tries to shoot someone with it!
Many many blue moons ago... NW also tried using a similiar thing.

I've also seen several things in larps to "enhance" packet archery-

Packet throwing sticks (for things over 20 ft in range)

Elastic slings (also for things over 20 ft in range)

Multiple Packets (for volleys of arrows)

Slingshot packets (instead of a bolt string like we use now, imagine an elastic tube that you draw back on like your shooting rubber bands)

Paintball guns

Paintball guns with NERF arrows (this was actually NERO mind you, anyone else remember Baron Reinholdt?)

Molded 2'' foam spheres (slightly denser foam, like the kind nerf balls are made from)

~Barry
 
Balryn said:
Paintball guns with NERF arrows (this was actually NERO mind you, anyone else remember Baron Reinholdt?)

PREPARE TO DIE! 21 Fire Silver Piercing!

Oh, THAT Baron Reinholdt...

-Bryan
 
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