Oak of the Archmage & Flexible Casting

[Ryan S]

I had a player approach me about this interaction, and after reviewing the rules I didn't find something definitive to provide to them. I'm hoping that someone else can find a more specific rules reference, or (barring that) provide their own thoughts on this interaction.

Oak of the Archmage, can it be utilized to spell strike signature spells converted with Flexible Casting?

1. The one side of me says that the mechanics for Oak of the Archmage is super similar to Combined Strike which is specifically called out as not usable with Flexible Casting (and includes the phrasing "other skills like...").
2. But the other side of me says that High Magic is different, and that Oak of the Archmage can use all the help it can get. Additionally, another High Magic ability (Spell Augmentation) gets a specific call out that Flexible Casting can be utilized, but Oak of the Archmage has neither an inclusive or exclusive mention for Flexible Casting.

 

[tieran]

I’d say no.
OotA says the character may expend a signature spell from memory
FC also requires the character to expend a spell from memory.
This “expend from memory” verbiage is used in all the skills mentioned in the FC description and is what prevents FC & OotA from interacting that way.

The general rule is that once you expend a spell from memory to fuel one ability it is not there to fuel another. It being specifically mentioned as an exception in Spell Augmentation only strengthens this.

Not an official ARC ruling, just my opinion.

 

[Shen [he/him]]

I disagree, as you are expending a spell from memory - the skill's requirements have been met. Following example 2, other HM skills specifically allow it, leading to the idea that it not being listed in OotAM was simply an oversight. As Primary Scholar ability, there is no detriment to the game allowing a Scholar to use it in such a way that is explicitly not allowed.

 

[tieran]

You can’t expend a single skill to fulfill multiple requirements. You cannot use a parry to fuel a spell parry and fuel a riposte.

While I won’t speak to whether it would be detrimental or not, I think the precedent is there for it not being the way it works, unless expressly allowed.

 

[Shen [he/him]]

IMO - Flex Casting isn't fueling an ability. It alters how another ability works.

Spell Casting is the Ability. You either can cast what you memorized or, if you have a flexible mind, can always cast your signature spells regardless what you memorized. "Flex casting" ins't an ability which is consuming resources or expending a spell.

Which is further why IMO HM abililities allow flex casting and specifically say that they do - despite strangely OotAM doesn't. But Martial/steath skills specifically say that you can't. because their "ability" requires that you legitimately memorize a specific spell. It is why those skills have such a larger impact (looking at you united blow). Because the player must sacrafice the ability to have versatility of Binding, commands, curses, Protection and only use their signature spells. In exchange, they get a pretty noticible bonus for doing so - while still having their signature spells to use as normal if desired.

The rest of my issues/concerns with OotAM not withstanding

 

[tieran]

I think your initial premise of FC not being an ability is off base. It may help to think of it as something else, but I don’t think it is.

As to the HMs, I think the specific ones that make the allowance get treated differently because they say they get treated differently, and the fact they expressly lay that out is more behind OotA not working with FC.

I don’t think you and I are going to see this the same way without some additional input.

 

[Shen [he/him]]

In an attempt to likely over explain my perspective and how I reached it...

Flexible Casting - Passive (ARB from website 2.04)
A character with this skill may convert a spell in memory at time of casting to a Signature Spell of one level lower. First level spells may not be converted in this way. All other requirements of the spell must still be met; the spell must be correctly incanted (as the Signature Spell), a packet must be correctly thrown or touchcast, and so forth. If the spell misses its target, the caster may Meditate back the original spell.

A spell converted in this way cannot be combined with other skills like United Blow, Combined Strike, Enhanced Strike, or Empowered Strike. The converted spell may be placed into a Spell Store or Memory Strike Ritual.

Oak of the Archmage - Passive (ARB from website 2.04)
Oak of the Archmage allows a caster to evoke Channeling charges through a Staff instead of a Source. The caster must be proficient in the use of the Staff skill for this ability to be used. When Oak of the Archmage is chosen, the caster must choose a single appropriate element for their Channeling pool(s). Multiple Oak of the Archmage High Magic effects may be used for multiple elements, including to empower it with both Earth and Celestial Channeling pools. Having a Staff shattered, lost or stolen does not end the Oak of the Archmage effect, though a caster would need to find or purchase another Staff to continue to use this High Magic ability.

A character wielding such a staff may also manifest their Channeling energy through its swings. The character may expend Channeling Pool points to swing with the call “X Elemental Strike <Type>”, where X is the amount of Channeling points they wish to expend. This may not be higher than their normal Channeling Pool maximum, and may be enhanced using the Greater Wand Ritual. The type chosen may be any type they could normally channel through their Staff.

Additionally, such a character may expend a Signature Spell from memory to swing with the call “X Spell Strike <Effect>”, where X is the damage of the Signature Spell and <Effect> is the effect appropriate to the expended Signature Spell.

Flexible casting allows you to alter 1 spell in memory for a signature spell of lower level to be also cast from memory. If it were not a "From memory" spell, it would not qualify to be able to be meditated back if/when the spell misses. It would say that Flexible casting specifically requires powerful meditation, or simply not allowed to be meditated - but it doesn't. Flexible Casting is also specific in what it does and does not allow, OotAM is not on this list. OotAM just states that a character must expend a signature spell from memory, which the caster has done.

This is equally true that The Potency Ritual (version on the forums at least) does not implicit or explicitly comment on its ability to interact with Flexible casting, despite that it says "From memory" and the spell is then fueling two different augmentations. Nor does Potency comment on its ability to interact with Enhanced Sig. Despite again a spell is fueling two different abilities.
These examples are a spell being augmented by outside forces "fueled" by two different abilities to create a single effect. From my perspective, Potency is specifically designed to do just that - yet it doesn't specifically say anything to support it or to contradict it that design or assumption, but how everyone seems to agree it works.

While our opinions may not agree, I primarily don't follow how you have reached your opinion because from what I am able to find and my view of those things I could see how they could be read to not support my perspective - but i don't see how they would support yours. but its just as likely I am simply not understanding how your intending your text versus how you wrote your text so it may be easier for us to just talk about it after a meeting some night. :shrug:

 

[tieran]

For FC, you consume a spell in memory and output it as a different spell, specifically a signature spell of one level lower. If I use flexible casting to consume a spell shield to output a 20 healing, the spell that was in memory was a spell shield.
FC does not turn spells that are in your memory into other spells in your memory. It consumes them to fuel another spell. This other spell is never in memory.

OotA allows you to consume a signature spell in memory to fuel a spell strike.

Potency is not “fueled” by spells. It’s an effect that you flip on which then increases the damage done by the appropriate. If I cast a 1st level spell under potency, I’m still casting a first level spell, it’s just being output as a second level spell, but if I meditate it back I get a first level spell back, not a second.

Enhanced signature spell works in a similar fashion, you cast a signature spell of x level, and you get an effect of 10x damage. It’s not consuming a spell to output one of a different level, it’s modifying the damage done by the effect. Potency would then interact with it by increasing that amount of damage by 5, as it does with any other appropriate effect.

Hopefully, the above explains where I’m coming from a little more fully, but I don’t think either of us have said anything new in a post or two, so it’s probably worth waiting on further back and forth until some other people make themselves heard.