[.11] Poll : Reworking Resurrection

Should Permanent Death be removed from the game?


  • Total voters
    54

Muir

Fighter
Reading the discussion on life spells and the social expectations imposed on earth casters has lead me to consider another aspect of that same question.

In most every big fight, we generally have one or more earth casters who spend the entire mod evening sitting at a Circle of Power to perform resurrections and perform bag of chance pulls for characters.

This is not, on the whole, a particularly exciting or fun bit of mechanics, although I know there are some players for whom that is exactly what they like to do. But it begs the question of why we force players to go through a process that few really enjoy and which is effectively forced downtime when they are not allowed to play the game?

In general, permanent death in the game now is a complete non-issue barring the few who make an unlucky pull. Between goblin stamps and the myriad number of ways to avoid actually having to pull, once a player reaches a certain longevity, their character lives precisely as long as they care to play it. In the decade plus I've spent playing this game actively, I can recall one permanent death that was not an intentional request from a player to a plot team, and that was a first-ever pull unlucky draw.

So, my thought on this is the following:

For 2.0, we should simply remove the bag of chance and permanent death from the game, both in the name of improved mechanics, and to ameliorate edge case customer service issues. This can be replaced by what is effectively an automated respawn system, which requires that players walk physically OOG to the designated resurrection location (as indicated at PC talk at the start of an event), perform a reform count and return to game from there.

PCs are already generally acknowledged in most game worlds as exceptional and the majority of NPCs already do not resurrect, so changing the mechanical method of resurrection does not in any way impact worldbuilding. As an added bonus, the further moves us away from considering Earth magic in a quasi-religious light as equivalent to D&D Clerical magic.
 

Tantarus

Squire
If you take away any penalty that is a huge mistake imo. It makes death meaningless and just turns the game into a zerg.

While I would not be opposed to removing permanent death. Death should have a replacement penalty that makes fear of death still a real thing. Losing a Level or something.

That said I am one of those old characters. Over 20 years on this PC. Regen and rebirth have kept me around a long time. So maybe I am biased.

Also in the North west we have had a lot of perms. We had a bad streak of 10%ers perm. We have had games with 10-20 resses over the years as well. Which usually result in a perm.
 

Muir

Fighter
Death is already meaningless. The threat is easily kept at 10% by GS, or simply removed entirely with ritual.

The only ones threatened by it are players and characters without sufficient resources, creating yet another system where the majority of consequence falls on lower level characters.
 

Ruki

Scholar
Without permanent death, there are no stakes for the PCs. They can just run in, go ham, die, come back and repeat. If anything, I think permanent deaths being easier (by removing vuyinb back deaths) would be better.

Just this year, we've had two higher level PCs perm and one pull black.
 

Darkcrescent

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
I’ve seen around shy of 10 perms in my 7 years from 1 chapter. I’ve seen resurrections in mass. My first event I rezzed along with 4 others, the big 3 year finale I rezzed with 7 others in a great 3 hour fight. In a recent fight I watched 11 people rezz while I did a Oblit on a bottle. PCs STILL remember that event known as “The Eleven”. 13 people in Chicago stepped up to take a accepted Shatter Spirit to help trap the 5 yr BBG and the deaths stuck. That has meaning. Taking away death or the fear of, means less investment in these characters.

Here is who I’ve seen 10% and it has Huge impact in RP and other characters lives.

- Gorka
- Kendra
- Thorador (last life)
- Cho Ko Nu (last life)
- Talitha (last life)
- Lilly (10% on 2nd char—she played Gorka)
- Jehyu (permed in Somi)

Others I’ve seen do a retirement death.

I can’t disagree enough that death is meaningless.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Death is already meaningless. The threat is easily kept at 10% by GS, or simply removed entirely with ritual.

The only ones threatened by it are players and characters without sufficient resources, creating yet another system where the majority of consequence falls on lower level characters.
Easily?

It’s 30/60/120/240/480/etc in GS, and there is a cap.

Obliterates, while rare, can take that 10% to 40%, and no amount of GS can change that.

As for characters sitting at an Earth Circle during big fights, I’m guessing that’s different from chapter to chapter, to be honest. In Seattle, invested characters get a “mental ding” if a spirit manifests in the Circle.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Also, I’ve seen 10% and 20% deaths in the PNW, and they’ve drastically affected my character.
 
Relatively newer player here(I have been playing the last 4ish years) I want to put in a bit of my two cents.

Within my first 2 years I saw the inside of the circle for a resurrection 4 times. I don't regret a single one. It was the risk of being an adventurer. The level of rp that I have gotten out of taking all of the resurrections I have been through helped shape my character into what she is now. From my first death, which happened in the Graveyard saving someone else, that was a coxing back to the second Resurrection in a single day(it was a one day event) and getting yelled at to stop dieing. Even the resurrection(with the first use of my regen) because I had been bit by a vampire and it was the quickest solution[that had a whole load of drama surrounding it that finalized a major character growth and change for me] I wouldn't have not wanted to have that be a fear and event to occur. Each time has had an impact on my character and I wouldn't have it any other way.

PCs STILL remember that event known as “The Eleven”. 13 people in Chicago stepped up to take a accepted Shatter Spirit to help trap the 5 yr BBG and the deaths stuck. That has meaning.
As part of the PCs who witnessed/fought that event, it ment a lot. My character had already had died and gone through a resurrection 4 times . The conversation and RP that happened around my character not being allowed to further sacrifice herself that year and her extreme worry and frustration at allowing her SO to take the death instead. It sparked a strong RP at the resurrection of those 13 as I had expressed(In game as my character) that the trade off for letting her do it was I was the one to be there for the resurrection, which because of a mass res done had to be modified and created a short character building rp.

The amount of rp that goes into resurrections and dealing with perms is so much a cool part of the game that makes it so much more then just a IRL MMO. If someone wants to not worry about deaths then play an NPC but I feel that as a PC there should be fear around going through the circle and the possiblity of perming. It is the harsh reality of the world that the game takes place in, the adventurers tend to last a lot longer then the common folk but they also are constantly risking it all for their tasks. I wouldn't want that to go away. As someone who plays a Selfless character as my main that is often a conversation that has to be had with her, about how perminant her deaths could be if she is not careful.

Granted I now have a regen on her but put there(by her at the time guild master) because she had ressed 4 times in 2 years. Since then I have racked up to having used 3 of the regen charges, two of which in a single fight[I despise that npc that did it and am glad he is now Permently dead], but that doesn't stop me from being acutely aware that if I am not careful I could end up dead for good and the impact that would make on others, especially those I consider family to my character(both PCs who have had that relationship built and my character's in game family.).I had a magiced family conection to Jeyhu like a month before he permed and I keep it as an ingame piece of hurt my character still feels. As well as the retirement perm of one of the biggest casters did became a spark of truth for the risk.

At the end of the day there is access to things to prolong a characters life but to remove perms would lose the fear of real danger that comes with Advernturing. I wouldn't want to lose that meaning in not coming back or risking the chance of not coming back. For me it is a big part in shaping the negative/dangerous side of what it means to be an adventurer.
 
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Muir

Fighter
Also, I’ve seen 10% and 20% deaths in the PNW, and they’ve drastically affected my character.
Yep, and I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice that in exchange for never having a 'whoops, you pulled poorly on Friday night, sorry about your event' moment happen to anyone.
 

Ruki

Scholar
Your alternative makes death meaningless though.
 

Muir

Fighter
I don't find death particularly meaningful now. It's easily enough avoided, and the proliferation of regens other means of cheating it indicates to me that players are avoiding it as well.

I am generally of the opinion that if a part of a system is not fun to the point that players avoid interacting with it, it needs reworking.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
This is one of the few things that would keep me from coming back to an Alliance event. That tension that something terrible might happen to me keeps the game interesting.
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
Maybe tweak the system instead of throw it out?

Keep the bag, but have different choices on a black.
  • Retirement death, as per usual.
  • Struggle back by willpower. Your spirit is unable to return until the end of the event. You make it back a little mentally scarred but otherwise intact. NPC, swap to an alt, or maybe there's a fancy ritual that will bring you back sooner for a hefty price.
  • Don't want to wait? Why not make a deal with unknowable powers? Get stuck with something similar to a selunari or fae curse until you've completed a quest for some entity. Can't select this again until the task is done.
  • Last chance resurrection, as per usual. Probably little reason to pick this one given the other options, but someone somewhere might pick it for reasons.
 

Muir

Fighter
Locking people out until the end of the event is worse.

It's a straight up customer service statement of "Thanks for your money, now go home."
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
Perhaps, but that's why that's just one of the options. Maybe options/alternatives could be better. Or just the duration? "Be a crunchy in this mod and you can come back after"?
 

Tantarus

Squire
Locking people out until the end of the event is worse.

It's a straight up customer service statement of "Thanks for your money, now go home."
Ehh, Turning ressing in to wow style run to the spawn point and keep playing like nothing happened would be worse for the game then going to NPC for the weekend. People would lose interest quickly if there was no tension or risk.
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
I suppose another dimension of keeping the bag but removing the possibility of player-involuntary permadeath is the lifecycle of the black tokens. Since they're only counting up to inconvenience and/or plot instead of something permanent, just letting them count up until the bag only has bad options isn't great.

Maybe the bag resets or halves any time you pull black. Maybe certain options (like one that involves NPCing for a time) rid you of more than others.

Likewise, since Obliterate can't actually fully take out PCs under this model (unless the player accepts it, of course), it might need to change as well. My suggestion would be that oblit is treated as an automatic black pull AND your black tokens don't decrease.
 

Ruki

Scholar
I suppose another dimension of keeping the bag but removing the possibility of player-involuntary permadeath is the lifecycle of the black tokens. Since they're only counting up to inconvenience and/or plot instead of something permanent, just letting them count up until the bag only has bad options isn't great.

Maybe the bag resets or halves any time you pull black. Maybe certain options (like one that involves NPCing for a time) rid you of more than others.

Likewise, since Obliterate can't actually fully take out PCs under this model (unless the player accepts it, of course), it might need to change as well. My suggestion would be that oblit is treated as an automatic black pull AND your black tokens don't decrease.
I still feel like this trivializes death. It means prema death won't happen, and there won't be that tension. The only downside is maybe having a time out

The system is fine as is.
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
I still feel like this trivializes death. It means prema death won't happen, and there won't be that tension. The only downside is maybe having a time out

The system is fine as is.
That's fair. I'm fine with permadeath as well, but I realize some aren't. If there's enough who aren't, then other options should be on the table. Whether it's a brisk walk to the circle, a timeout, a quest, or something else entirely. Maybe it's just the walk, but more monsters are willing to steal and/or KB?
 
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