[.11] Rogue State

DiscOH

Artisan
I've been having difficulty coming up with something rogues do better than another class.

Are rogues supposed to be the best at melee dps?
By 110 xp spent on damage, rogues and scouts will hit for the same bonus damage from behind. By 200 xp spent, scouts will hit for more rear bonus damage (while wielding a 2hw).

Are rogues supposed to be the best at target removal?
If a rogue spends all their XP on per day abilities they end up spending 35% more xp per daily than a scholar does.

In 1.3, rogues were kind of ok at a lot of things but they had uniquely efficient access to waylay and legerdemain. In .11 the waylay capstone was removed, and legerdemain was dropped in cost for all classes (10>6 for a fighter, 4>3 for a rogue) making lockpicking available for any class that wants it.

Are rogues supposed to be a "roleplay" class that is purposely undertuned like artisan?

Do people feel like the new capstone (can deal full damage to targets who rip free) outperforms the old one (at will waylay from behind)?

What do people find optimal about the new rogue?
 

Tantarus

Squire
Seems to me rogue will do the highest static damage (though positional based). Also have access to the best defense skill in the game, dodge, as well as a very strong skill in evade for cheap. They are the only class in the game that can deal with arcane delivery.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
My rogue will be a KO/avoidance/Retribution king. I’m okay with this.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
Seems to me rogue will do the highest static damage (though positional based). Also have access to the best defense skill in the game, dodge, as well as a very strong skill in evade for cheap. They are the only class in the game that can deal with arcane delivery.
2hw scout does the same static bonus damage @110xp spent

Adept, Scout, and Scholar all have cheap access to arcane resistance as well.


Also calling waylay a skill you can get at level 1 capstone is a bit of a stretch dont you think?
Waylay requires 3 backstabs to overcome armor, 4 to overcome PA. That means you needed somewhere between 51 and 66 xp spent on rogue abilities to get the full effect. That's almost exactly the price point for the new rogue capstone.
 
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Tantarus

Squire
2hw scout does the same static bonus damage @110xp spent
What about beyond that number? Also 2handers are very specific. If someone encourages people to use them more, that seems fine. They will not put out the DPS a rogue with a long sword will still imo.

Adept, Scout, and Scholar all have cheap access to arcane resistance as well.
Do you mean cloaks?

Waylay requires 3 backstabs to overcome armor, 4 to overcome DA. That means you needed somewhere between 51 and 66 xp spent on rogue abilities to get the full effect. That's almost exactly the price point for the new rogue capstone.
I assume you mean arcane armor? in 2.0 neither that or PA will be around. Honestly I am happy to see waylay go, It was far to much bang for the cost. And not fun to play against an unavoidable attack that KOs you.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
What about beyond that number? Also 2handers are very specific. If someone encourages people to use them more, that seems fine. They will not put out the DPS a rogue with a long sword will still imo.
Scout has better damage growth than rogue does. They catch up at 110 xp and pull ahead at 200 xp. They stay ahead after that.

You can have a weapon that counts as a longsword and a two hander right? 48 inches is a length shared by both weapons.

(random bonus trivia 1hw scout vs rogue is about 1 point in damage behind from 170xp - 500xp. At ~800 xp Scout has more single handed damage. Fortunately that's far beyond the scope of what this game will ever field)
 

Tantarus

Squire
I dont think people are going to give up rogues in exchange 2hander scouts. But playtests will tell.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
If you want to scout, scout.

Meanwhile, I’m gonna be Tanksassasin over here with my rogue build.

I don’t LARP in MMO terms.
 
I play a Scout and I am very aware of the benefits of a Scout vs. a Rogue. I am also very aware of what I give up.

The benefit of higher average damage (overall) is nice and part of the main reason I play the class. And I expect that to remain true in 2.0. However, for that benefit I am giving up a lot of good stuff.

I ignore most one-shot abilities because they are more expensive for a Scout than they are for a Rogue, and in the case of Assassinate, they are much less efficient due to lack of specialization. A pure Rogue can have twice as many Assassinates that deal twice as much damage each, while spending less XP per Assassinate. Those incremental costs add up over time, such that a pure Rogue probably ends up with equal or higher damage from behind in a real life situation, despite the fact that in theory the Scout can be higher.

That probably doesn't make much sense, so let me explain fully. At a certain point, improving nothing but damage loses value. At that point Rogues / Scouts will start to pick up other skills (Evades, Dodges, Terminates, Assassinates, the new fun stuff, etc.). For all of those skills, the Scout is spending more than the Rogue. Eventually that adds up to multiple levels worth of difference. If the Rogue spends that difference on Backstabs, the Rogue should make up or even pass the Scout in damage from behind. In theory a Scout could choose to ignore those skills forever, but in practice, I have never met a Scout or Rogue who didn't grab every Evade and Dodge available to them and usually a handful of other skills as well (and I expect the new skills are enticing enough that diverging from pure damage will be more common, not less).

Additionally, Rogues get Alchemy cheaper and a lot of Rogues take advantage of that very well.

In short, I love my Scout and because I chose to focus on Archery, Scout seemed a better choice than Rogue for me. But I gave up a lot for this choice. Even counting my Parry, I have fewer one-shot defenses than an equal level Rogue, and that means I have to be a lot more careful. Also, the only big hit I have is a Terminate, since Assassinates simply don't offer enough value, which means I can get in trouble when sustained higher damage isn't enough.

The playtest will reveal, but I think Rogues have a unique place, still.

-MS
 

Ardos

Artisan
South Michigan Staff
The only thing I would point out is that rogue does have the most shallow curve of expensive skill cost on non rogues (ie 5,7,14 for eviscerate but 5,6,12 on doom. Rinse and repeat for other expensive rogue skills) this results in rogues on average being less useful for specialization than the rogue hybrids.
 

Inaryn

Knight
If you want to scout, scout.

Meanwhile, I’m gonna be Tanksassasin over here with my rogue build.

I don’t LARP in MMO terms.
So much this. LARPs are not MMOs.

Also, to answer an overlooked question, no, a 48" weapon cannot both be a long sword and a two handed weapon. It may only be tagged as one or the other. Alliance does not have hand and a half swords.
 

Manflesh

Artisan
Jumping in late, but I wanted to throw in my two cents as a long-time Rogue player.

I think the analysis of Rogue vs other classes, especially Scout on this thread is glossing over a huge aspect of measuring class strength in this system. Namely that each class excels during different stages of their leveling process. Fighters generally hold off well in the early years, Rogue's gain their ground in the mid levels, while hybrid classes and scholars dominate late in the game. Obviously magic items shifted this paradigm, but that's where 2.0 changes came in.

So yes, a Scout will eventually do more damage than a Rogue, but a Rogue will always have more versatility with their stealth skills load outs and have such options available to them years sooner than a Scout. Your choice between the two really speaks to what you value more, the journey or the destination.

Do people feel like the new capstone (can deal full damage to targets who rip free) outperforms the old one (at will waylay from behind)?
Outperforms? No, but that's kinda the point of this new rule set for most classes. That said, I think it's a highly effective skill to have. Especially with plot creatures that are trying to whisk themselves away.
 

Tantarus

Squire
I can see the case for scout if you value static damage as the best thing. But outside of that rogues have way more defenses and offensive abilities.

Hell I am looking at a rogue build that end up with 125 marital (3 profs, 1 evis, and 12 ripostes) and 270ish stealth. And it only swings 5 less from the front, nearly the same from the back. But has a full load of assassinates and other riposte goodness. Twice the evades and dodges. With Evade being like 90% as good as a parry these days, I think you are under valuing rogues abilities.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
My only issue with Rogue is that Riposte is clearly a Stealth skill that counts as Martial XP. I wish there were two separate skills, one that focused on using Stealth abilities and gave Stealth XP, and one that did the same for Martial.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
I can see the case for scout if you value static damage as the best thing. But outside of that rogues have way more defenses and offensive abilities.

Hell I am looking at a rogue build that end up with 125 marital (3 profs, 1 evis, and 12 ripostes) and 270ish stealth. And it only swings 5 less from the front, nearly the same from the back. But has a full load of assassinates and other riposte goodness. Twice the evades and dodges. With Evade being like 90% as good as a parry these days, I think you are under valuing rogues abilities.
I don't know what your backstab / proficiency balance looks like, but if you're using riposte as your per day takeout fuel scout eviscerate is better than pretty much any pure scout assassinate.

Following up on this, parry is 4 more xp for a rogue than a scout, but dodge / evade is only 1 more xp for a scout than a rogue. If you really want to min max defensives, a scout probably does a better job at that too

(Just noticed blacksmithing is 3xp, so in addition to ideal riposte spam a scout has way cheaper access to the 2.5 second refit master blacksmith unlocks too).
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I don't know what your backstab / proficiency balance looks like, but if you're using riposte as your per day takeout fuel scout eviscerate is better than pretty much any pure scout assassinate.

Following up on this, parry is 4 more xp for a rogue than a scout, but dodge / evade is only 1 more xp for a scout than a rogue. If you really want to min max defensives, a scout probably does a better job at that too

(Just noticed blacksmithing is 3xp, so in addition to ideal riposte spam a scout has way cheaper access to the 2.5 second refit master blacksmith unlocks too).
I think he means that he has Assassinates as his standard, plus also Ripostes for Eviscerate.

We’ve been talking a lot about builds.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Mastery of a crafting skill is 20 levels. At 3XP per purchase, that's 60XP... that's 6 levels for that bonus.

I think you're far too focused on the mathematical stats and not at all focused on the actual live application. We are, afterall, playing a Live Action RolePlaying game.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
Mastery of a crafting skill is 20 levels. At 3XP per purchase, that's 60XP... that's 6 levels for that bonus.

I think you're far too focused on the mathematical stats and not at all focused on the actual live application. We are, afterall, playing a Live Action RolePlaying game.
Xp expenditures are purely mathematical. What class you are is purely mathematical.

What you do in character after you buy those things is roleplay.

I feel vindicated still in saying the amalgamation of xp costs that is "the Rogue" is over shadowed at pretty much everything people have suggested the math is supposed to enable.

In 1.3 this is not the case.
 
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