The Grass is Always Greener: Nobles vs. Commoners

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Traceroo

Rogue
I'd like to start a candid and I hope polite conversation about rumors I've heard that there is, "too much noble plot," or at least too much emphasis on nobility in our game for the comfort of the players of commoners.

As one of the players of the 8 PCs with noble title in our game, I can tell you that not an event goes by that I don't hear of some criticism that I perceive to be directed at me, as a player, because I - and the other nobles - are effectively hogging up a bunch of game resources... plot, NPCs, time of the day, prime time of the day, space in the tavern, and so forth.

Probably every-other-event, these rumors are accompanied by part 2 of the admonition, "The noble players really need to understand this," as if we've actually never heard it before.

Let me tell you a bit about my perspective. I've been playing this style of boffer LARP since 1992; I'm wicked old hat. I'm also loud, and outgoing, and charismatic -- by which I mean altogether that I'm pushy! ;) What I really mean to say here is that I'll make my own fun at a game. I come from the school of thought about LARP that it provides the setting for you to make your own entertainment. I don't expect "to be entertained" by anyone else. I'm a mover and a shaker. I work to make my PC relevant -- and I like the courtliness, noble politics, and that sort of thing, so that's where I aim my game. I think I do what I set out to, and I've made my PC, Dame Katherine, notable within that circle of influence.

And yet, friends... I feel like I spend most of my events standing around in the tavern with my thumb... idle. I don't care for modules, so I choose not to go on them. I live for field battles, personally! I spend my time between big battles roleplaying with other PCs, and scheming little self-hatched plots. I've been very lucky to have stumbled into two big storylines (specifically, Chieftain Skagrack and the Skullhammer Tribe -- and the whole Epyxia greater scheme). I responded to the ogres by filling a module party from different groups, noble and common. I repeatedly made various in-character posts both on the website forums and in The Acarthian Times telling the story IG and inviting others along if they want in. The Epyxia connections are have are ones that I literally turned right around and handed out to a group of other PCs to track down. Through their networking efforts in turn, I think we had something like over 20 separate PCs turn in Between Games Actions (BGAs/Plot Submissions) about that story. I take only a small pie slice of credit for that, surely not all of it, or even the lion's share! Clearly my point here is that I believe in an inclusive style of play. When I've had but two opportunities for directed story come my way, my first action was to share it.

So I take umbrage every event when I hear more about the noble players (not characters) effectively breathing up all the good air.

I think plot resources are limited. There are only so many Local Plot writers. So many stories they can start. So many modules they can run. So many character histories they can respond to -- Certainly so much they can do all at once.

We have a ZILLION great roleplayers, and movers and shakers in this game! We all want our chance to get in on cool stuff.

It's my personal belief that probably every single player on site feels like they stand around a lot not involved while others seemingly get all the fun, all the glory. This is the seductive nature of envy, and it's part of human nature. I don't think it means, however, that there is any single group of players - however categorically labeled - that is in actuality "hogging up" all the resources.

I get psyched when I hear players may want to open a seedy dive bar somewhere IG in town, to emphasize that style of play. Then I hear they intend to ban nobles from it, and I'm like... wow. Thanks. I run Chivalry School and all kinds of public court activities to open the door to court activities if anybody wants in. I get complaints that I'm blocking others' opportunities by taking centerstage. You come up with a cool idea that I'd like to support and attend... and I can't because... why?

I hate exclusions. I love reasons to include MORE people in all styles of play.

If any one comes up to me, OOG or IG, and says, "Your lengthy noble meetings look like fun. I want to get in on that action," You're in. There's no meeting worth having that's not better worth having with a scribe, 4 bodyguards, a squire, and a messenger. You don't have to be a noble to get in on the courtly storyline.

But if you're just not having enough fun, or the type of fun you want -- don't look enviously to other players and assume they're breathing up all the good air. Envy rarely proves to have the truth of things. Just enter a conversation either IG or OOG about how to get in on it. Or start your own thing. Not everyone is a leader, and will want to start their own thing, I get it -- but equally, not every player who appears to have something you want is a bad sportsman or greedy or a bad person.

And I am stick to death about that implication about me, and the other 7 PCs of noble characters, which I hear over and over and over and over. Rumors get blown out of proportion, yes... but repeated, which they are, they have strength. It's exhausting.

Suffice it to say, however -- If I, personally, can ever do anything to help another player feel more involved, get more involved, become more involved, please just wave at me. I love nothing more in this kind of game than being able to provide the hookup to fun for someone else. Ask me IG or OOG -- just start a conversation with me.

Thanks for reading through my incredibly long, and no doubt oppressively rambling rant. I really want to get that off my chest.

Thanks,
Trace Moriarty
 
The nobility are to be excluded from the new thing for IC reasons. Stop taking them OOC, because they arent. The largest part of the unhappiness you hear, that we all hear, is rooted in that the commoner players have nowhere cool to go where the friggin nobility arent.

Theres no room to breathe and the players are taking it upon themselves to change that rather than complaining about it and that should be seen as a BLESSING to the game, to them as players ,and to the nobility-players too, not a punishment or ooc exclusion of anyone but rather increasing the options of people who presently dont feel like they have enough of them.

You cant have it all in this game. Nobility get their specialness from their title and subsequently they get certain things and have access to certain things the commoners dont and thats totally OK, thats a good thing! But to make the playing field level while still retaining roleplay dynamic in a socially stratifed setting, when some doors open, others will close. You and every single other noble player, can support the needs of others, wich in this case is having somewhere to go where the nobles ARENT, by being understanding of this because not only will it make people happy, it will give everyone new opportunities in roleplay we presently barely dabble in.
 
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The nobility are to be excluded from the new thing for IC reasons. Stop taking them OOC, because they arent. The largest part of the complaint is because the commoners have NOWHERE cool to go where the friggin nobility arent.

I'm really confused by this sentiment. In the other thread like an hour ago you suggested that: (bolding added)

Those are common sentiments in the game right now, yes. Noble players need to realize why some people are pissed off at them, and Commoner players need to understand that some of the **** that comes down is Plot's doing, not the players of the nobility. That is the short list of systemic problems in the class system at this time (theres more but this isnt that thread). This is something most likely to see some rebalance in the new season.

It sounds like what Trace and I have heard from others is the same as what you have heard from others, namely that "Noble Players need to realize why some people are pissed off at them". That sounds like taking an OOC thing OOC.
 
Ah yes, that is unclear. I am actually referencing something you said a earlier today, touching on the lack of options. Not having anywhere to go is a big deal- and thats the part relevant to what Im saying right now about the potential new tavern or some-such-thing where nobles shouldnt be.


The other part is a dovetail to this particular chunk, the part wich you quoted me with earlier, has to do with more generalized pissyness there seems to be about the nobility from some players (not event all) that I dont totally understand because the complaints are generalized- like people tell me they are annoyed or upset, and 'damn the man' and all, but they dont specify. Actually there was one specification: in October during the walk of the dead, there were a whole bunch of NPCs lining the roads, but they were only utilized to tell story for a couple of nobility- and introduce the belt cave (nobility) they could have been used for other players as well, thats the one specific one I can recall clearly. Lots of folks were standing around bored. -Except that was plots doing, not the nobility players. Still it caused a good amount of resentment.
 
I think at least part of the nobles not being allowed in the a commoner tavern was my idea. I know I talked to people about it as an idea to give commoners a place that they felt like they had some ownership over (it was just an off the cuff idea). But anyway, you already changed my mind a bit about finding ways to have your own thing but to be inclusionary rather than exclusionary to do this same thing. Also, I think plot is doing a great job finding more advancement/goals for people that aren't nobility. That's going to help this issue a lot.
 
When 7 individuals out of a whole game are excluded (please pardon my miscount earlier), it's pretty reasonable to take this personally OOC, I think.

Build an awesome thing directed to commoners! If the nobles are so sensitive that they need everything directed at them personally or they'll get bored easily -- Let them. They just won't show up. Those seven individuals can go on dominating the game and breathing up all the good air elsewhere.

Don't make it about blame and being exclusionary. Then it's not a matter of simply not being able to have your cake and eat it, too -- It's about a deliberate effort to exclude 7 players. I just can't see any way that ends up being acceptable let alone desireable.

Trace
 
Omg. I cannot put this more clearly to you. If you are so upset at potentially missing out on something; Make an Alt and stop whining. This isnt about YOU.

It isnt anyone being excluded! just characters that people are tired of dealing with. Characters that are NOT their players. Characters that did IC things, to get IC responses. And players who OOC want something more out of their game-play that are choosing to do something to facilitate it.

Some of us can make alts to experience other things just fine, openly and easily. But noone can make noble alts. And I have to say- some of those 7 do support and understand this idea.
 
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I've stated my peace, and I don't wish to engage in an ugly or mean-spirited debate.

Thanks,
Trace
 
I'm the player working on writing up the request to plot to create the seedy bar. I took the ideas and idle chatter of others and started fielding the possibility of it.


I planted a few IG seeds in November, wrote a sub-section in my downtime over the break and have been regularly poling the OOG studio audience to see the general feeling of the idea of a seedy bar. I've wanted to offer Plot the opportunity to run more morally ambiguous fishbowls and module hooks. A place that isn't black and white but one that is nothing but shades of grey (a lot more than fifty) and where the hook doesn't have to be "a dingo-kin stole my baby!". :) A place where there can be blood on the floor, a knife secured under a table and a lost-n-found box containing the clothes of the guy getting rez-ed in the circle.


The minor issue I've been running into has been the little question "won't the nobles or knights just shut you down?" And that's a hurdle. A noble/knight code doesn't allow for that dark grey. If a NPC is fencing goods or information, a representative from the thieves guild is setting up shop or there's some very questionable shenanigans going on a noble will stop it. Their code requires them to. I've been debating ideas with some folks on how to encourage a "don't be a noble in here" from reputation issues to being more out of the way or even having a "hang your belt here" kind of thing. Since I didn't have a good end point that wouldn't exclude anyone, I held off on completing the project.


And then life got in the way and I let the idea go idle and back into "what if" line of thought. If you'd like to talk to me about the idea and ways of letting that grey sit at the table, I'd be happy to chat with anyone privately.

Val
 
Every player has the choice to participate inclusively and involve others, or not to do so. Noble PCs have gone to the roguish elements in-play and said, "Here's some plot information. Can you find out more about this?" That can work both ways, and when it does, ththat's the game I most enjoy playing.

I look at the game as I do life -- Success does not need to be a zero sum game where one person "having" means someone else going without. Much as I wish everyone used Dial, I wish everyone approached both LARP and life this way...

But they don't have to, and that's within both the rules of the game and life. That style of play is appealing to some, clearly, and they're welcome to it. I'll keep doing my own thing, my own way regardless. if anybody wants in on what they perceive is something I'm involved in, all they need do is let me know and the door's open.

Trace
 
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Also, as a person who has talked about noble vs commoner plot in the past let me be very clear that I have expressly meant "noble courts" aka the baronies vs commoners...not the 7 people that play nobles. I think that is a very different conversation. I'm not sure what others mean when they say "nobles vs commoners" but I wanted to be clear in what I am talking about.

Also, this seems like a conversation that should be had over beers at Connor O'Neils.
 
Hey all, I just want to leave a gentle reminder to be civil and courteous in this discussion.

One thing I find useful for myself is when I find I'm getting really heated and at a point where I think I might say something hurtful out of anger, I try to take a break, do something else for a bit, and respond when I feel more cooled down.

Airing frustrations and disagreements is important in any community, otherwise it builds up and leads to resentment and all kinds of unfortunate drama. Let's just not forget that we're a community, and try to keep it to productive and civil discourse.

As far as the plot side goes: We are working on improving plot distribution and we've got some things cooking behind the scenes that will hopefully help some of this problem. I understand that it's tremendously frustrating to feel your needs not getting met, and downright enraging or futile-feeling to then see what looks like other people getting their needs met when yours aren't! We've only finished our first full season as a game, and the plot team has had a lot of change and turnover, so we're still gelling as a team. We're all learning from this - staff and players alike. Hopefully we as plot can provide an improved experience in the 2015 season, and hopefully you as players can provide an improved experience for each other as well.

This is a good dialogue topic, folks; let's keep it considerate and continue to have productive conversation.
 
I'll just leave this here... https://medium.com/alliance-larp-denver/getting-plot-attention-in-larp-f6fc2249c6a6

90% of the people that complain about not receiving plot violate one or more of the principles in the article.

Its not stated in the article but "has attended more than 2 games is also a criteria I bet they have." If plot doesn't know you exist they can't craft plot for you.

One of the most important sections of the article is "join/create a group". If Group A has 6 players in it and group B has 8 players in it in theory Group A should receive 6 plots for every 8 group B receives. It doesn't always work that way but its very fair. Individuals will ALWAYS get less plot than big groups due to the "web of influence". Groups need more plot to keep everyone with things to do. Right now most commoner groups are small in number (with the exception of the Scions). This reduces the amount of plots they get. This isn't a conspiracy to keep them down, its just a numbers game. Considering it a different way:

Alice, Bob, Charlie, Dani, and Edward walk into a game.
Plot create 1 storyline for Alice, 1 for Bob, 1 for Charlie, 1 for Dani, and 1 for Edward.
Players complain that the game is unfair and "only commoners get plot". Why?

Bob, Charlie, Dani, and Edward all joined Mud and Blood and Alice is the sole member of Rivervale. Mud and Blood received 4 times the attention that Rivervale did. "It's unfair" they say. Really it just depends on your perspective.

I'm not aware of any Warchester specific plots that are being run. I'm ok with that because Warchester is a new team (old team died) and we have comparatively few players. I don't say that plot is out to get Warchester, instead I try to include more players on the team and increase the reason for plot to give a reason to target plots at Warchester.
 
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Also, as a person who has talked about noble vs commoner plot in the past let me be very clear that I have expressly meant "noble courts" aka the baronies vs commoners...not the 7 people that play nobles. I think that is a very different conversation. I'm not sure what others mean when they say "nobles vs commoners" but I wanted to be clear inwhat I am talking about.

Also, this seems like a conversation that should be had over beers at Connor O'Neils.

I chose not to be a noble, and therefore I am not involved in the Saturday noble meetings. I am more often bored during that time, than any other time in the game, but I accept that I chose not to be a squire. or pursue that path. In my opinion, being a noble has a lot more downside than upside in our game, and those who have taken on the extra burden to hold noble positions deserve some special treatment, and need time together to make political decisions. I try to make my own fun during that time. A lot of times I am able to find a mod group. I have also started talking to other players about maybe doing some caster/undead hunting training during that time. As Trace was saying, I think it is important for players to take responsibility for their own fun However, if I am excluded from the noble meeting and am excluded from the area with the commoners, I would have a very difficult time finding people to interact with during that time. I would be VERY upset about that both in and out of character.
 
Thats not, nor ever was, on the table. So far as I know this idea was about belts only, not whole courts or associates.
 
From my perspective, I have a thought about why it "feels" like there is a huge amount of noble plot: most of the "everybody" plot *looks* like noble plot. BBG runs in to massacre the town... we get told what to do by noble war-leaders who seem to know what's going on. Weird lights show up up the hill, and its the nobles who say who should head up there and who should stay behind. Drunk ogre shows up in the bar looking for his mom; its the nobles who decide if the heavy frying pan he is carrying counts as him being "armed" so we know how we are allowed to handle him. So even when the plot is written as a "everybody" story, it comes off to some of us as a noble plotline that we get to do some fighting on.

I'm really not complaining. I have never felt "plot-envy". I suffer from "choice-envy" instead. And the OOG part of me agrees that anything exclusionary will generally hurt, the IG part of me things exclusion is real.
 
there were a whole bunch of NPCs lining the roads, but they were only utilized to tell story for a couple of nobility-

As far as that goes... like MUCH in our game... not ALL players see ALL the stuffs, therefore this is entirely inaccurate. This is clearly one example though of what happens on a regular basis... players think and wrongfully assume that everything they do or see are the only things happening at the game. The beauty of playing on 800 acres and having 4 different writers is that stuff is happening all over. In this instance specifically, there were SEVERAL character history ghosts out there... including stuff for the scions, other non-noble NPCs to interact with, and then there's the king. Yet even the king wasn't JUST for the nobles. He was the king who established the kingdom.... even playing my chaotic neutral elven rogue, I would've thought that was kinda neat. The point is... there are more things happening at any given event than what you see or participate in... with the exception of large field battles of course.

Shady plots and things- And there have been SEVERAL different ones, not just the incompetent ones...LOL
As a general note: When we have done them, the following things happened-
1. players killed them without asking questions
2. players missed the clues entirely and didn't bite on a lead (there were even some in chests that got blown up because players decided to tank through the trap and not attempt to disarm it)
3. players turned them in/ratted em out, etc...
4. players ignored them
Jus sayin...
ALSO... the nobles won't shut you down if you are smart and don't get caught. Keep a lookout. Whisper inside and tell them to hide the necro scrolls or enslavement elixirs!!! Katherine's coming!! (sorry Trace ;-) )

Use of "we" a opposed to "I."
When players respond to things, via this forum, FB, or post event commentaries, whenever I hear WE FEEL or WE KNOW... right away I'm thinking who is we? How many? Is it even truthful? I am not trying to tell you how to speak but I am telling you how I hear it... I work better with I FEEL, I WITNESSED, etc... just an fyi.

And for the record. Stoney Deepjug's Tavern is and never was a "noble" tavern. In actuality, it is a commoner tavern where the nobles eat and occupy when the ducal gatherings are in town. There are bar brawls, dealings in the corners, entertainer caravans, things swept under the rug or into the fire, etc... just not when the nobles are present. LOL. The nobles don't own the tavern but the duchess pretty much has free reign to set up shop for her meetings... she takes care of Stoney quite well for the rental too!

All in all, remember... perception of what happens at the game is YOUR perception. Another player might have a VERY different perception. Keep that in mind... be open minded of others' experiences... or the fact that you just have to accept that stuff has DEFINITELY happened that you missed... but above all... please be kind to one another. There is no need for certain behaviors among friends and family. We are humans though and when people do make mistakes, friends and family should always own up and apologize and try to make things right.

This has been brought to you by Mr. Rodgers, my mom, JTF, and the letter I.
Jesse
Warlord of shenanigans
 
Unfortunately, "fun" and "perception" are indelibly linked. So even if the perception is inaccurate, being wrong won't change the fact that some number of people (which, admittedly, might be 2) feel like this is a real issue. *something* is happening that is interfering with some people's enjoyment, and it seems worth investigating. Obviously, more veteran players can see it, and I can certainly attest that it hit me in the face from my very first game, so novices can see it too. I feel like a lot of the public concerns I see get a response of "you are wrong to feel that way". Seems counter-productive.
 
I totally agree. That's why I said you have to JUST ACCEPT it and hope you get a better run of things next event. There were PLENTY of times in my career where things happened to other players and I only found out by reading about them in the paper. There were other times where I feel like I went on 90% of the mods and was involved in every plotline. It's mostly luck of the draw... where your feet take you and what you come across and interact with. Once the non-veteran players understand and accept this... I think there will be more general game flow and euphoria... snicker.
 
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