Trap physrep update discussion

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
With this latest ruling, it seems that Alliance LARP Seattle is aiming for all traps to be both easy to find and easy to disarm. I have spent hundreds of dollars and, at the very least, several dozen hours researching, designing, and building traps that meet the core rule book standards in addition to being highly functional and difficult to disarm. As it appears to me, Alliance Seattle wishes to go back to the days before Bjorn appeared on the scene when all traps were no more than a mouse trap taped to a box. I am not trying to be rude, I am merely trying to understand the change in guidelines that makes it appear as though every trap that I have built is now illegal in a system that previously approved all of my traps. I have several traps (intended to be noise makers) that are hooked to car alarms, will these now be considered illegal? I have other traps that you will not be able to tell if they are armed unless you move them or set them off. Could I just mark them somehow, like with red tape, to signify to marshals that they are armed? And to clarify; triggers just need to be visible, not necessarily easy to spot, correct?
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
As long as the car alarm isn't so loud as to be painful OOG to someone standing right next to it as it goes off, car alarms are fine. Marking them somehow with a toggle on/off state is what it's needed, as someone with legerdemain should be able to reset traps, especially weapon traps, and somewhat more importantly, a marshal will need to know if a trap is armed so they know to call a hold and treat it as triggered if it is moved more than 5'. I'd have to confer with other marshals, but my first thought is that a strip of red tape would work for the second instance, but I'm not sho sure about the first.

It doesn't have to be easy to disarm, but all traps should have a chance to be disarmed if someone is reasonably careful and observant. There should also be something for someone with very simple tools to work with in disarming said trap, whiby motion sensors don't provide.
 

norman b

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
My concern about red tape is that it may fall off, it may not be replaced when re-armed (not your fault), or not removed when disarmed.

The core rules specify the trap must be able to be disarmed. This may be very tough. It may also have numerous ways to set off the trap, but there must always be a way to disarm it and know it's disarmed (by a marshal). Attaching an OOG marshal notes is probably best.

As for the volume of the traps, we are looking out for the safety of our players. If anyone has hearing loss or damage due to a trap, that's bad for the game.

We do not want to discourage anyone, but many traps will need to be tweaked and we understand that. Does it suck? Sure. Are we confident that players who made genius traps to begin with will be able to make these changes, absolutely.
 
car alarm traps should be not in game. 100+ db in close is bad.
 

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
So what good is a noise maker trap that you have to be right next to in order to hear it? Anything greater than 130 dB is the threshold for instantaneous hearing loss. Car alarms hit 120 at the highest.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Luke, I'm going to be blunt here. If a trap you set causes pain to another player, don't you see something wrong with that?
 

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
I'm not trying to hurt anyone. The point I'm getting at is that mowing your lawn without hearing protection will cause more damage to your hearing than 20 seconds of being near an alarm going off. The alarms I use are 120 dB at zero feet, however that drops off sharply as you move away and the traps as I have made them will have you a minimum of 15 feet away from the noise source. Again I ask what good is a noise maker if it can't be heard from a distance? I don't think it's unreasonable to use noise makers as perimeter alarms.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
Can you have an OOG on/off toggle to satisfy the requirements? If so how would you go about labeling it as oog?

Does the trap require an indicator of arming if it is purely stationary? Cannot be moved without physically setting it off.

If a trap is designed so that it is either armed or triggered with no means to have it in both states at once is that an acceptable indicator? Ie: a tripwire trigger or switch that when disarmed while the battery is in is actively making noise? Basically traps that are still technically active while disarmed, just not triggerable via the tripwire.

Is there a standard being established for what indicates a visibly armed trap to avoid confusion? For instance Joe Marshal might see a green light and interpret that as being armed, but Jim Ordnaceman thinks of green as safe, or unarmed.
 

Mortikai

Newbie
Does the sound maker need to be with the trigger?
Meaning can I set the trigger at the door, but have the effect alarm be....I don't know...like 10-15ft away so it doesn't blast someone right next to it?
 

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
That's exactlywhat I'm taking about, I'm glad you understand! The loud traps that I have the trigger is attached by at least 15 feet of wire to the speaker so that it will still be loud, but not right next to the piece you're trying to disarm.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Which is good, however we have to plan for people to either A, not understand how the trap works and are trying to disarm the wrong piece (follow the wire to the speaker thinking it's part of the trap and it's tripped) or B. their buddy may be standing next to it for whatever reason (may have been pushed there by combat ). I don't think you're trying to intentionally set off traps that are dangerously loud. In fact, I think you've gone out of your way to make things as useful as possible without being dangerous. You've obviously done a ton of research and care deeply about this issue. I just personally am not comfortable with a noise trap louder than your average motorcycle (100 Db at 0') and I'm a bit more generous than some, who had numbers thrown around in the discussion at 80-90 Db. Assuming the 10' to 15' distance your car alarm traps would fall in that 80-90 Db range, but without that distance though, they're on the rough side.


The cold hard facts in this matter are that in another LARP a player went to the hospital for an improperly used very loud trap. Whether they physically needed to go for hearing loss is irrelevant. That they felt they needed to go after that, is. To ensure that we don't have that kind of issue at our game, and to keep our site insurers happy, we have to come up with a set of guidelines that aren't going to make everyone, or anyone really, 100% happy. The boundaries got pushed too hard and now there is push back which may or may not go too far in the other direction. That this discussion even needs to happen is something pretty much no-one likes to have happen, but now it has to. The marshals in charge of safety are here to work with you to help make things work within safety guidelines, not to work against you.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Hey guys.

Before I give my point about this subject, let me remind everyone involved that we're all really passionate about various aspects of this game, and we need to ensure that our passion comes out in a positive tone to the best of our ability. Posts that need to say "I'm not trying to be rude," or posts that ask unnecessary questions such as "don't you see something wrong with that?" when describing scenarios where the player would obviously see something wrong, will likely come off as sarcastic or combative.

We need to be better than that. I can be guilty of this as well, so I also know we're all coming from good places, but we need to make sure our forums stay positive, so other players feel more welcome when they participate, rather than seeing arguments that they'd rather avoid. This type of tone is part of the reason many players avoid the forums in general.

We need to set a better example.

Regarding traps:

In order to give clarity, two different trap experiences are what led to the announcement above. The first was a trap type with a unique trigger setup that the Marshals conversed about regarding legality. Please note that Marshals have the arduous task of taking the ARB and interpreting the spirit of the rule, more than the letter. At the same time, we Marshals need to be as universal as possible in our clearance of traps/weapons/armor/etc, so we exchange our perspectives and decisions are made.

Additionally, an experience reported to us at another LARP that has many players who attend Oregon caused us to examine the use of certain types of traps and their safety hazards. As a reminder, our game -stresses- safety over simulation. There are several examples of this within the rules. We are volunteers who may make decisions that some players feel are over-restrictive. The reality is that I'd rather a game that was over-restrictive for purposes of ensuring safety, than a game that was willing to risk safety to allow more options.

So, we genuinely do not want to ruin anyone's fun. But if we make decisions like this, we promise it's because we feel something legitimately needs to be addressed, or because even though X player might be able to use Y object safely, the same might not be for players A, B, and C who might decide Y object is really cool, and use it improperly.

1. Can you have an OOG on/off toggle to satisfy the requirements? If so how would you go about labeling it as oog?

2. Does the trap require an indicator of arming if it is purely stationary? Cannot be moved without physically setting it off.

3. If a trap is designed so that it is either armed or triggered with no means to have it in both states at once is that an acceptable indicator? Ie: a tripwire trigger or switch that when disarmed while the battery is in is actively making noise? Basically traps that are still technically active while disarmed, just not triggerable via the tripwire.

4. Is there a standard being established for what indicates a visibly armed trap to avoid confusion? For instance Joe Marshal might see a green light and interpret that as being armed, but Jim Ordnaceman thinks of green as safe, or unarmed.

1. Have the toggle labeled to indicate on/off, written clearly. I'd personally be okay with +/-, as well.

2. Yes. If the trap cannot be determined as armed by an impartial observer, it is not legal. A Marshal should be able to see your trap, observe your trap, and determine that it is armed or not.

3. No. That would be a pretty obvious break of the spirit of the rules regarding noisemaker traps. A disarmed trap shouldn't make noise because it was disarmed. If it was a noisemaker, then it definitely shouldn't make noise when it's beaten, and if it's not a noisemaker, it shouldn't make noise whether or not it's beaten, outside of the declaration of effect.

4. Not really, however, you can definitely make use of Marshal Notes, or put a legible label on your trap that indicates what your color coding means. (Green = armed, red/blank = disarmed, as an example, were you to use LED indicators).

Please note that one of the advantages of tripwires is that "armed" or "not armed" is really, really obvious. Because there's a visible wire. And it's basically set up to ruin your day.

Does the sound maker need to be with the trigger?
Meaning can I set the trigger at the door, but have the effect alarm be....I don't know...like 10-15ft away so it doesn't blast someone right next to it?
Yeah, sure! That's totally fine.
 

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
If I place a switch on a trap so that a marshal can easily shut it off, it can be labeled OOG, right? It seems to me that this would be easier than leaving instructions on some of my traps, but I just wanted to be sure that this is a viable option. Other traps I have made are so complex to disarm that without specific OOG instructions the marshal will have a hard time disarming or resetting the trap, so I plan on now (based on the earlier post from Norman) leaving a set of OOG instructions with the trap. In both cases, the traps integrity will now rely solely upon the honor system, rather than it's own merits.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
If you put a switch on your trap that disables the trap, please note that a player can disarm your trap using that trigger.
 

Grimmloch

Newbie
Question on that Evan...

So say I have a Trap.. It has a combination of sorts and a disorganized cypher so is essentially a puzzlebox. If the wrong combination is entered trap goes off. Additionally I place a Switch... A simple on/off and its on the back of the trap... If that switch is used the trap goes off... Is that legal?
 

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
Based on the traps that I've made, that have been approved twice now, yes that is legal
 

Lynx

Newbie
In regards to the noisemakers, couldn't you simply put a variable resister between the circuit output and the speaker input and bring the dB down?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Question on that Evan...

So say I have a Trap.. It has a combination of sorts and a disorganized cypher so is essentially a puzzlebox. If the wrong combination is entered trap goes off. Additionally I place a Switch... A simple on/off and its on the back of the trap... If that switch is used the trap goes off... Is that legal?
Having a false trigger like that wouldn't make it illegal, no. Please note that an impartial observer must be able to determine your trap is armed, so be careful your false trigger doesn't create an illusion that the trap is armed/unarmed.
 

Azmodeous

Artisan
Owner
Seattle Staff
In regards to the noisemakers, couldn't you simply put a variable resister between the circuit output and the speaker input and bring the dB down?
If it met the requirements for the circuit and would fit in the box, yes you could add a resistor. However, it is easier to just muffle the speaker due to the space restrictions inside the boxes that contain the current circuitry.
 
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