v0.10 ...if we did v1.4 instead

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Since this has come up in another thread, I figured it wouldn’t be a terrible idea to start a consolidated post about it.

If the game were to implement a 1.4 instead of what is currently in the v0.10e packet, what would you like to see in it? What would those patch notes look like to you? Please feel free to copy over any existing posts you may have made about this subject.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
If I were to go to 1.4 right now, I would only make the following changes. 60 rit limit; remove the following rituals: Spirit Store, Expanded Enchantment, Greater Wand, Damage Aura; remove High Magic Bane and Spirit Store; modify elemental burst so it doesn't add to wand damage; do the spell changes per 2.0.10; change the following rituals to 2.0.10 versions: Monster Slayer, Race Reaver.

As to the response of DA being okay, I really don't like the idea of a ritual that duplicates at a minimum 45 build, up to 120 for a scholar.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Doing away with Expanded Enchantment, would you have any objections to potentially incorporating a few additional resources to the Crafting skills? Like Ward Scrolls, Life Potions, or some high end Blacksmithing product(s)?

Would you be opposed to changing Damage Aura to Magic Aura, simply allowing the weapon to swing for Magic?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
1) Healing Wands, or significantly improved Relics with a 10 count or faster activation with Protectives as an option.

2) The removal of MIs that duplicate build.

3) A change to the Death/Dying system which would include that a character could be brought back to Life via significant amounts of Healing (amount needed based on their body points), which would take away the unique aspect of the Life spell while still allowing Life to exist as a superior (but no longer only) way to bring back a character.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
Things I'd like to see
  • Dodge/Parry/etc unlocks available to appropriate crafting roles
  • Something useful for blacksmiths to do besides arrows
  • Elemental alchemy was really cool
  • Mundane equivalent of high magic (examples: enhanced healing received, crawl while bleeding out, remote detonate own traps without injury)
  • Specialization of crafters (lower cost on 1 specific item, special unlock for every 30 levels etc. Life elixir for 30+ potion maker for instance. Basically any reason for players to trade)
  • A reason to purchase slay/assassinate etc
  • Double coating on thrown weapons
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Doing away with Expanded Enchantment, would you have any objections to potentially incorporating a few additional resources to the Crafting skills? Like Ward Scrolls, Life Potions, or some high end Blacksmithing product(s)?

Would you be opposed to changing Damage Aura to Magic Aura, simply allowing the weapon to swing for Magic?
I don't have any objections to those, although, similar to high end blacksmithing, I would place those at a very high premium, 100 p.p. or so.
 

Tantarus

Squire
  • Magic item nerfs, the .10 are fine, but just removing what maxirons suggested would be enough of a start. I am pro making damage aura into magic aura and leaving in other auras. The 10 min aura timers feel unnecessary and mostly a nerf to fighters/templars.
  • Class build based preregs. I find this to be very nice for crafters and formalists.
  • Wands for earth casters. It is crazy to me that for simply being celestial over earth I get over 1000 points of free damage and an extra hundred packets to throw a day. Relics as listed are crap, there has not been one positive comment on them, many negative.
  • Quality of life changes such as removing alot of the racial penalties, making build/xp simpler, and Changing magic item duration to be event based.
  • Magic item cap, lower the better. Even down to 10 would be fine. Make the game about build skills again, not your magic items.
 
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MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I think I came off as those being the only things I'd like to see, when really those are the triaged most important fixes in my opinion.
 

Alavatar

Baron
  1. Effects and Delivery Changes
    1. Add "Healed", a call used when a creature is healed by something that doesn't normally heal (i.e. Healed to full by Prison would result in calling "Healed", but not Undead healed by Chaos or Living healed by Earth)
    2. Add "Altered", a call when the target takes the effect, but treats it as another effect (i.e. takes Web as Pin would result in calling "Altered")
    3. Add "Mend Armor" as defined in 0.10e
    4. Add "Slow" as defined in 0.10e
    5. Change Necromancy Effects to those defined in 0.10e (except Corrupt)
  2. Weapons, Armor, and Combat changes
    1. Implement Armor rules as defined in 0.10e
    2. Implement the Head is always an illegal target as defined in 0.10e
    3. Implement Unconscious rules changes as defined in 0.10e
  3. Spell Changes
    1. Implement using higher level Spell Slots for lower level spells as defined in 0.10e
    2. Change the SLIF Bolt/Storm, Eldritch Blast, and Cure <X> Wounds spells to be available at every spell level with a numeric value at the end as defined in 0.10e, but without the base incantation change (i.e. I call for an Evocation Bolt! 40 Flame! I call upon Earth to Cure Wounds! 25 Healing!")
    3. Add Earth Wands that do Earth/Chaos damage similar to Earth/Chaos Storm.
  4. Skill and Character Changes
    1. Implement Read/Write and Educated change as defined in 0.10e
    2. Implement Racial selection no longer impacts your Body Point total as defined in 0.10e
    3. Remove weapon related restrictions from races as defined in 0.10e
    4. Remove the double cost for Read Magic and Educated from races as defined in 0.10e
    5. Change Selunari Curse to Resist Curse as defined in 0.10e
    6. Change Barbarians to Oathsworn as defined in 0.10e
    7. Change Dark Elf make-up requirement to something else (purple or slate-gray)
    8. Add Dryad phys rep clarification as defined in 0.1.0e
    9. Change MWE to Sylvanborn as defined in 0.10e
    10. Add First Aid clarification to call 'No Effect' immediately if the target is invalid as defined in 0.10e
    11. Add the skill Resolute, except allow it to negate a non-damaging effect OR reduce you to 1 Body Point if a damaging effect (thanks Tevas)
    12. Remove Legerdemain, incorporate into Create Trap as defined in 0.10e
  5. Alchemy and Traps
    1. Add Blast Globes recipe as defined in 0.10e
    2. Implement Trap Area of Effect changes and Target changes as defined in 0.10e
    3. Add Scroll Traps as defined in 0.10e
    4. Add Trap Globes as defined in 0.10e (Slow Globe, Shatter Globe, Silence Globe)
  6. High Magic
    1. Implement Celestial Armor changes as defined in 0.10e
    2. Reduce Elemental Augmentation cost to 1 High Magic point per Evocation spell augmented as defined in 0.10e
    3. Change Elemental Burst to no longer give bonus Wand damage as defined in 0.10e
    4. Remove the Spirit Store High Magic
    5. Remove the Bane High Magic
    6. Change Healer's Resolve to give the option to throw Earth/Chaos packets similar in power to Elemental Burst Pool, but do damage like Earth/Chaos Storm (i.e. only Heals via touchcast, when thrown acts exactly like Earth/Chaos Storm)
  7. Magic Items
    1. Limit a character to using a maximum of 60 rituals as defined in 0.10e
    2. Change Magic Item durations to be based on Logistics Periods as outlined in 0.10e
    3. Change confusing Magic Item terms
    4. Remove the following rituals:
      1. Cloak
      2. Bane
      3. Expanded Enchantment
      4. Channel Spell
      5. Greater Wand
      6. Elemental Burst
      7. Protection Aura
      8. Spirit Store
    5. Change the following rituals
      1. Damage Aura
        1. Provide only the Aura
      2. Race Reaver / Monster Slayer
        1. Remove the Aura; add only +2 Damage
      3. Spell Store
        1. Stored Spells expire after 5 days
      4. Store Ability
        1. May not Store the Dodge ability
    6. Add the following rituals as defined in 0.10e
      1. Counterspell
      2. Elemental Manipulation
      3. Empower Armor
      4. Enhanced Quiver
      5. Retribution
      6. Life Leech (with the exception the owner of the weapon call "Healed" when used)
      7. Memory Strike (with the note the spell expires after 5 days)
      8. Merchant Insight
      9. Mystic Armor
      10. Poison Cache
      11. Poison Trigger
      12. Potion Coating
      13. Quicken Aid
      14. Spell Swap
      15. Stalwart Shield
      16. Warrior's Incantation
    7. Wand Reagent changed to Ley Ore as defined in 0.10e
    8. Change True Empowerment Ritual Manipulation (current rules give a times ever or times per day Spell, Cloak, or Bane; obviously that needs to change if Cloak, Bane, and Expanded Enchantment rituals are removed)
 
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Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Alavatar, would you be in favor of adding healing and evocation at each level, with numbers added to the verbals for each one?
 

Axle

Newbie
  • Transfer all weapon improving rituals to being a blacksmith crafting ability. Spell parries for instance could be flavored as being created with magical materials that resist magic and only a skilled smith could work it into a blade. Limit 1 racial reaver or monster slay per weapon and have them be destructible if you really want to limit them. Also go through the normal needing certain materials dropping to actually craft the weapon. Will feed back into player economy and give blacksmiths something to do. If you still want to limit then replace "Ritual Scroll" with "Magic Blueprint". Or if you want to make them really rare then require both a ritualist and blacksmith to be present.
  • Have cloaks be a buff that casters can cast on their fighter tanks and others. I re-read the intent stickied thread and it seems like they want to encourage team play and limit the ability of one class to do all the things with magic items. If they give casters the ability to get all of the cloaks then have them be able to actually support the fighter actually taking the hits with the spell.
  • If class build points are preregs then include things like weapon skills and blacksmithing for fighter skills and rogue skills whichever is more cost effective for the persons build. Would help the cross classes a bit.
  • Blacksmiths being able to give a temporary armor buff. Just another thing to give smiths a bit more utility. Flavor: Blacksmith skill with armor is so great that they see the weaknesses of your battle scarred armor and bolt on some metal patches or hammer out a caved in section. "It's not gonna last forever but it'll get you to the next fight. " Gives you a +20 to armor that will be first to go and when you refit you'll go back to your normal max.
 
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Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Such as, "I call forth an Evocation Bolt! 40 Flame!" or "I call upon the Earth to Cure Wounds! 20 Healing!" ?

Sure.
Yup! That, and having a healing option at every level, or choice of any element at any level for evocation bolts.

Your list is super thorough, and beautifully formatted.
 

Alavatar

Baron
  • Transfer all weapon improving rituals to being a blacksmith crafting ability.
  • Have cloaks be a buff that casters can cast on their fighter tanks and others.
  • Blacksmiths being able to give a temporary armor buff.
I really like these 3 things.

Additionally, your note on Cloak opens the door of giving a Caster the ability to give temporary Ritual-like effects to a companion for High Magic without a Spell Craft. Cool idea.
 

Alavatar

Baron
  1. Effects and Delivery Changes
    1. Add "Healed", a call used when a creature is healed by something that doesn't normally heal (i.e. Healed to full by Prison would result in calling "Healed", but not Undead healed by Chaos or Living healed by Earth)
    2. Add "Altered", a call when the target takes the effect, but treats it as another effect (i.e. takes Web as Pin would result in calling "Altered")
    3. Add "Mend Armor" as defined in 0.10e
    4. Add "Slow" as defined in 0.10e
    5. Change Necromancy Effects to those defined in 0.10e (except Corrupt)
  2. Weapons, Armor, and Combat changes
    1. Implement Armor rules as defined in 0.10e
    2. Implement the Head is always an illegal target as defined in 0.10e
    3. Implement Unconscious rules changes as defined in 0.10e
  3. Spell Changes
    1. Implement using higher level Spell Slots for lower level spells as defined in 0.10e
    2. Change the SLIF Bolt/Storm, Eldritch Blast, and Cure <X> Wounds spells to be available at every spell level with a numeric value at the end as defined in 0.10e, but without the base incantation change (i.e. I call for an Evocation Bolt! 40 Flame! I call upon Earth to Cure Wounds! 25 Healing!")
    3. Add Earth Wands that do Earth/Chaos damage similar to Earth/Chaos Storm.
  4. Skill and Character Changes
    1. Implement Read/Write and Educated change as defined in 0.10e
    2. Implement Racial selection no longer impacts your Body Point total as defined in 0.10e
    3. Remove weapon related restrictions from races as defined in 0.10e
    4. Remove the double cost for Read Magic and Educated from races as defined in 0.10e
    5. Change Selunari Curse to Resist Curse as defined in 0.10e
    6. Change Barbarians to Oathsworn as defined in 0.10e
    7. Change Dark Elf make-up requirement to something else (purple or slate-gray)
    8. Add Dryad phys rep clarification as defined in 0.1.0e
    9. Change MWE to Sylvanborn as defined in 0.10e
    10. Add First Aid clarification to call 'No Effect' immediately if the target is invalid as defined in 0.10e
    11. Add the skill Resolute, except allow it to negate a non-damaging effect OR reduce you to 1 Body Point if a damaging effect (thanks Tevas)
    12. Remove Legerdemain, incorporate into Create Trap as defined in 0.10e
  5. Alchemy and Traps
    1. Add Blast Globes recipe as defined in 0.10e
    2. Implement Trap Area of Effect changes and Target changes as defined in 0.10e
    3. Add Scroll Traps as defined in 0.10e
    4. Add Trap Globes as defined in 0.10e (Slow Globe, Shatter Globe, Silence Globe)
  6. High Magic
    1. Implement Celestial Armor changes as defined in 0.10e
    2. Reduce Elemental Augmentation cost to 1 High Magic point per Evocation spell augmented as defined in 0.10e
    3. Change Elemental Burst to no longer give bonus Wand damage as defined in 0.10e
    4. Remove the Spirit Store High Magic
    5. Remove the Bane High Magic
    6. Change Healer's Resolve to give the option to throw Earth/Chaos packets similar in power to Elemental Burst Pool, but do damage like Earth/Chaos Storm (i.e. only Heals via touchcast, when thrown acts exactly like Earth/Chaos Storm)
  7. Magic Items
    1. Limit a character to using a maximum of 60 rituals as defined in 0.10e
    2. Change Magic Item durations to be based on Logistics Periods as outlined in 0.10e
    3. Change confusing Magic Item terms
    4. Remove the following rituals:
      1. Cloak
      2. Bane
      3. Expanded Enchantment
      4. Channel Spell
      5. Greater Wand
      6. Elemental Burst
      7. Protection Aura
      8. Spirit Store
    5. Change the following rituals
      1. Damage Aura
        1. May activate 1/d to swing with the Magic carrier for 10 minutes
      2. Race Reaver / Monster Slayer
        1. May activate 1/d to swing for +2 damage to the target creature for 10 minutes
      3. Spell Store
        1. Stored Spells expire after 5 days
      4. Store Ability
        1. May not Store the Dodge ability
      5. Elemental Aura / Earth/Chaos Aura
        1. May activate 1/d to swing with the defined Element (SLIF, Earth, or Chaos) as a carrier for 10 minutes
    6. Add the following rituals as defined in 0.10e
      1. Counterspell
      2. Elemental Manipulation
      3. Empower Armor
      4. Enhanced Quiver
      5. Retribution
      6. Life Leach (with the exception the owner of the weapon call "Healed" when used)
      7. Memory Strike (with the note the spell expires after 5 days)
      8. Merchant Insight
      9. Mystic Armor
      10. Poison Cache
      11. Poison Trigger
      12. Potion Coating
      13. Quicken Aid
      14. Spell Swap
      15. Stalwart Shield
    7. Wand Reagent changed to Ley Ore as defined in 0.10e
    8. Change True Empowerment Ritual Manipulation (current rules give a times ever or times per day Spell, Cloak, or Bane; obviously that needs to change if Cloak, Bane, and Expanded Enchantment rituals are removed)
I added changing Evocation / Healing to Spell Changes.
I added a Damage (non-healing) Earth Wand to Spell Changes.
I added a change to Healer's Resolve to allow packets be thrown similar to Elemental Burst Pool, but for damage (non-healing when thrown).
 

Melimir

Newbie
Asheville Staff
Pretty much this.
  • Racial dodge becomes racial evade. Remove purchase limit. Adjust cost as appropriate.
  • Either mettle becomes a very similar, but slightly less effective dodge in the fighter skill set (stunned for a three count). Similar purchase cost. I gave my full suggestion in the other thread as quoted below. This would replace the dark elf's resist magic.
  • My relic suggestion in the other thread as a crowd control option vice the 0.10e. Also quoted below.
Suggestions from other thread:
  • In addition, since rogues already have the evade/dodge progression (smart guard to avoid weapons/avoid almost everything respectively) perhaps consider giving fighters the same. Parry is the smart guard to avoid weapons, spell parry is a smart guard to avoid spells but requires a ritual so it is inaccessible to a lot of the player base (especially low/mid levels) so while nice, I will not be considering it. Now, how about meeting in the middle (absolute smart guard but not as good as dodge): when hit by an attack, whether an eviscerate or a bind, the individual would be effectively stunned for a 3 count and be able to shrug off the damage/effect, (I feel the wording is bulky but it demonstrates my point "I collect myself 1, I collect myself 2, I collect myself 3"). This would give it more value than parry, and would have it be weaker than dodge and make the individual vulnerable for a short time during which no abilities may be used. There would be less incentive to do what a lot of people are recommending and that is dump some XP into rogue skills purely for a dodge or two or 5.
  • Now relics, I hate to echo this bandwagon, but since it appears the design is for it not be a direct offensive ability or to increase a town's healing pool (hence the reason it is not just a simple healing/chaos charges), and since the curative route is a very inelegant/ineffective application, why not a crowd control option? A single charge would create a crowd control effect where I am suggesting the call "repulse". The effect is a creature would simply have to take 2 steps back from the caster. For options/greater relic ritual, a caster could expend 3 charges to create a "slow" or say 5 for a "repel", shoot for 10 maybe even a "shun", just to provide options and make it diverse (and rapidly consume charges/a player resource).
 
It is so hard for me to decide, because individual rules don't exist in a vacuum.

The fighter skill shatter / disarm rule is pretty awkward, but it is the only suggestion I have ever heard that makes either of those skills worth the XP cost. And without that rule, the new change in shield size is horrendously bad (I already think it is a terrible idea, even with that).

Then I look at fighter damage changes (and rogue changes), and to be perfectly honest, I like the changes in concept. The difference between 2 normal and 10 normal is pretty darn big. The difference between 2 normal and 20 normal is night and day. And that latter is the reason for body bloat on monsters. It isn't because of magic items or vorpal arrows. It is because there is an entire generation of front-line fighter / skirmishing rogues that can unleash triple digits of damage in less than 10 seconds without spending any resources. And the effect of that is both the need for body bloat and making new players feel completely meaningless. For those reasons, I like that the system is trying to scale that repetitive damage back, even if the current proposal feels very problematic. If forced to choose between the current rules that trivialize new players (and, IMO, are one of the biggest roadblocks to player retention) and the proposed rules stifle high level characters, I would take the new rules, even while kinda holding my nose while doing so.

I could easily name the proposed rules that I like, but the problem is that simply taking the ones I like just doesn't really work, because many of them are only balanced in conjunction with other proposed rules (ones that rub me the wrong way).

All I know for sure is that magic item bloat needs to be kicked hard in the teeth and I think at least one of the various playtest proposals did that (though I am VERY unfond of the artificial 60 ritual limit in this one).

-MS
 
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Tantarus

Squire
@Alavatar Love the list.

You left of the Warrior's incantation though. Was that on purpose? I actually like it more then Memory strike because then only casters can use it and drain from there memorys rather then passing there build into a weapon that someone else can use.

Only thing I really disagree with is Auras, why not leave them as always on? the 10 minute thing feels like another unneeded thing to track and overly punishing to people that need them in melee. Why not have them always on, but Limit of 1 Aura per weapon. So you have to make the hard choice, do you want to swing magic, or maybe an elemental that does double to something.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
@Alavatar Love the list.

Only thing I really disagree with is Auras, why not leave them as always on? the 10 minute thing feels like another unneeded thing to track and overly punishing to people that need them in melee. Why not have them always on, but Limit of 1 Aura per weapon. So you have to make the hard choice, do you want to swing magic, or maybe an elemental that does double to something.
I love the list as well @Alavatar. It is much better than the one I was doing in the fly.

@Tantarus what if the weapon aura was always on? Putting an magic/elemental/earth/chaos aura on a weapon destroys & replaces all other auras on the weapon, and you can't swing for normal/silver with it, but you can swing that new aura without limit. Enhanced blade/earth blade/chaos blade gives the player that carrier for ten minutes. I.E. Kel has a Stone Aura on his staff, so the staff swings for stone only. Getting into a fight with undead, he casts Earth Blade, and can swing for stone or earth.
 
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