Weapon Proficiency Cost

Aden Corso

Newbie
I'm curious about the reason for the cost of Weapon Proficiency for the different classes. The Fighter class has it for 3 points, but every other class has it for 6 with the exception of Scholars, who have it for 8. It makes sense that Fighters should have it so cheaply, as it is very thematic for them, but I don't know that I've seen other skills with such rigid pricing. Even Read Magic and Backstab have much more varied pricing. Why should a Scout, described as a swashbuckler in the class description, pay double what a fighter does? Why should a Spellsword?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Spellswords don’t pay double for Prof, nor do Fighters pay 3.

You have to factor the cost of Critical Attacks, which spellswords pay the same price as Figjters for.

So for WP 1, a Fighter pays 9 and a Spellsword pays 12. For the second, it’s 12/15.

So, a Spellsword actually doesn’t pay that much more for WP compared to Fighters. If I were to buy 8 Profs as a SS, I would pay 132 XP in CAs + 48 for the profs (180 XP). A Fighter would pay a total of 156 XP. That’s a mere 14.4% increase for the Spellsword.
 

Ruki

Scholar
If a Scout paid the same price for Profs as fighter... why would anyone play a fighter? Hybrid classes have more flexibility than others, but they pay for that flexibility with a slight increase in XP costs.
(As an Adept, I say #worth)
 

Aden Corso

Newbie
Spellswords don’t pay double for Prof, nor do Fighters pay 3.
In the herobuilder app, at least the freeplay version, this is exactly what I'm seeing. Is the program out of date? Or are you looking at it as a matter of perspective and am I missing it?

If a Scout paid the same price for Profs as fighter... why would anyone play a fighter?
Oh no, I'm definitely not saying that they should pay the same. I'm saying that it would make more sense for the Scout to pay 4 or 5 as opposed to 6 points per proficiency, which is keeping along the same lines of cost for every other skill in the book.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
In the herobuilder app, at least the freeplay version, this is exactly what I'm seeing. Is the program out of date? Or are you looking at it as a matter of perspective and am I missing it?
What is going on here is that it is twice as expensive to upgrade a series of Critical Attacks into a Weapon Prof. It is three build for a Fighter to do so and six for a Spellsword. The cost for a Critical Attack for both classes is the same at three XP.

Example:

Fighter has spent nine XP on their three CAs. They then need to "trade in" their three CAs for another WP at the cost of three XP. Total cost for the WP including pre-req CAs is 12XP.

Spellsword has spent nine XP on their three CAs. They them need to "trade in" their three CAs for another WP at the cost of six XP. Total cost for the WP including pre-req CAs is 15 XP.

Technically the cost for the Weapon Proficiency skill is doubled for the Spellsword versus the Fighter, but the cost of all pre-reqs is not doubled, ergo the total cost in XP to get to that next WP is only three XP more per WP for the Spellsword over the Fighter.

upload_2019-3-11_15-5-28.png

upload_2019-3-11_15-5-48.png

In other words both @Draven and @Aden Corso are correct. :p
 
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tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
So I think the issue that you are having is that you are not factoring in the crit attack costs.

A prof costs x + (y * (2 + z)) xp.
x = cost for weapon prof
y = cost for critical attack
z = number of profs the character already has

So, for a fighter buying their first prof, x = 3, y = 3, z = 0.

A spellsword buying their first prof, x = 6, y = 3, z = 0.

While buying profs in the character builder pay attention to the number of profs you have before and after you purchase the weapon prof.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
FWIW, @Ken is working on the code to be able to purchase WPs without having to manually purchase the CAs first. I do not believe it is deployed yet.
 

Ruki

Scholar
FWIW, @Ken is working on the code to be able to purchase WPs without having to manually purchase the CAs first. I do not believe it is deployed yet.
Oh man, that'll be awesome. I keep undershooting how many BA I need.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Awesome! Let's not forget the Back Attacks / Backstabs now.
BS/BAs are included, this thread is just about WPs in particular. We haven't forgotten our backstabby buddies.
 

Ruki

Scholar
BS/BAs are included, this thread is just about WPs in particular. We haven't forgotten our backstabby buddies.
We are the best buddies.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
There's a pattern for some skills where everyone can buy it at one cost, except fighters get it cheaper and scholars get it more expensive.
This includes: Florentine, Polearm, Shield, Style Master, Two Handed Blunt, Two Handed Sword, Two Handed Master, Weapon Master, Weapon Proficiency, Hardy

With that said, only Hardy and Weapon Proficiency are martial skills. There might be an argument that WeaponProf should be costed more like "Shatter/Disarm Blow" (possibly with scholar costing 8 instead of 7)



With that said, there are some weirdnesses in skill costing. Some of these are probably caused by trying to make skills cost the same as they did in 1.3, but at the same time some skills went to having a smoother costing in 2.0 (admittedly sometimes in inconsistent ways). For example:

Slay & improved slay cost artisan's twice what they cost scholars. Slay costs scholar 4, but costs artisan 8. In 1.3, a slay cost scholar & artisan 8. In 2.0 slay+improved slay costs scholar 8 but artisan 16.

Improved slay, Parry - each costs scout 1 less than spellsword, which given that both are fighter-hybrids, and their other "half" have the skills at the same cost. (ex: rogue & scholar both have parry cost 8). The roughly analog "rogue" skills don't have this sort of difference in costing for scout & adept.

A bunch of the martial dual-skills have some weirdness with costing around adept/artisan/scholar.
* "Weakness / Shun Blow" & "Destruction / Stun Blow" - both have artisan having the scholar cost, and adept having the rogue cost, and there being a jump of 2 in cost; rather than more smooth costing that "Sleep/Enfeeble Blow" or "Shatter/Disarm Blow" have. Basically Adept is cheaper than would be expected; or possibly artisan&scholar are more expensive. Comparing 1.3 vs 2.0, its clear some skills got some cost smoothing (shatter used to cost 3,4,8; now costs 3,4,5,6,7 - more expensive for hybrids but cheaper for others). Basically, Adept should probably have these 2 skills costing 7.
* Sleep/Enfeeble Blow is probably 1 to cheap for artisan/scholar.
* Its likely that all 3 of these skills should have the same cost structure: Sleep/Enfeeble Blow, Weakness / Shun Blow, Destruction / Stun Blow. Specifically Fr 4, St 5, Sd 5, Rg 6, At7, Sr 8, An 8 (or in rulebook ordering 4,5,6,7,8,5,8). This is the same pattern "Shatter/Disarm Blow" follows at 1 less cost.

Hardy - artisan is cheaper than adept or scholar.

Assassinate costs 2 for adept but 1 for scout. It should probably cost the same for both.

Herbal Lore & Alchemy costs spellswords the same as fighters -- not the cost expected of a hybrid of fighter&scholar. IE, it costs 6, instead of 5.

Its likely that create trap, herb lore, and alchemy should all cost the same for scout. Fighters can buy all 3 for the 6 and rogues can buy all 3 for 3, so its not clear why the cost varies. Its possible what this is actually suggesting is that Create Trap should cost rogues 2.



With that said, none of these are really a big deal since they pretty only effect "offspec" skills. They mostly affect skills that almost no one will buy.
 

Ken

Artisan
Alliance Logistics
It'll be a little while still until that feature branch is ready for prime time, but here's an illustrative example on the topic of WP costs for different classes, hopefully with correct XP values:

Fighter
fighter_wp.png

Rogue
rogue_wp.png
Scout
scout_wp.png
 
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