What can plot do to help high level players contribute to the game?

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
Related to the do they die enough thread (which was split from the necro thread).

I don't think it matters for high level players die more, though highbies should feel challenged to achieve their goals just like everyone else at an event. In combat and some other challenges the risk of rezzing should be present. But in general making high level players rez more often probably won't make the game more fun.

I think low level characters can benefit from the presence of high level PCs or suffer from the presence of high level PCs. I think plot can do some things to make sure there is more benefit than suffering. This thread should be a discussion of things plot can do to make sure that high level players contribute to making the story better for all players.

I'll start with my anecdote from the necro thread:
....I'm reminded of the old days in Ashbury where one of the noble teams was always the first into fights but also the first to run into a ward or a circle when the fight got tough. We used to make fun of them. But as far as I know there was never any real IG pressure (like from the NPC duke or paladins) for these guys to remain in the fight. I guess if it's too easy for high levels to run away from a fight, then it's also easy for low levels to get caught in a bad spot and rez.

Here, these high level players were putting low level players in extra danger of rezzing because the high levels were quick to run from fights. I think plot could have done more to make sure the noble team from my anecdote were the last to retreat. The duke could have said that nobles under him are always the last ones to retreat. If they ever leave a new adventurer in a compromising spot on the battle field they lose the noble title.

Number 2. This one is probably not so big an issue any more since all the high level players I know go out of their way to avoid pvp with low level players. But, there should be a real investigation into theft from / death of low level players. Before the split, a few of my friends were killed by high levels and their stuff taken. No one tried to help them recover their stuff. One of my friends quit the game - why bother playing if high level characters can just take anything cool he earns in game? If someone important - pc or npc - had just said "we will find your magic item" that guy might still be playing today. He would be adding to the story and we would still be friends.

The last one I'll mention is that plot should help high levels show new players the game. Help them take new players to interesting parts of the duchy, show them interesting monsters, whatever.

This one is based on what happened a few years ago when my character decided he would help novice adventurers work together in combat. Plot said they would find me a few NPCs so that after I had a group of 6 new players I could take them on a mod and give them instructions on how to stay organized during a fight. I made sure everyone had a cure light, made sure they knew to look out for each other, etc. Plus if things went wrong my high level guy (who would otherwise not participate in the combat) could save the low levels from rezzing. I go to NPC camp at the magic time. No NPCs. This happened a few times before I gave up. I never did figure out what was more important than setting up a mod for 6 of the newest characters in game.


I'd like to hear your ideas on helping high level player characters make the story better for everyone.
 
The biggest thing, I think, that plot can do is to make a concentrated effort to scale mods and draw in the PCs that suit the scaling. This may require a little bit of metagaming on both sides from time to time. However the fun of low-level characters being able to go on mods that are actually scaled to their level without a higher level character trivializing it and being in position to scoop all the decent loot is very much a part of keeping those players interested and having fun.

Having the majority of the 'lowbie' content be 'here, go fight these mooks while the King Of Town and his team ace the BBEG' is a disservice to the players. It also leads to situations like feeling that every loot split needs to be 'auctioned' to the whole town, which inevitably seems to end in no chance of any of the low level player characters picking up any interesting loot because those with resources are in a better position to outbid them.

So, in my opinion, the best thing plot can do to help high level players contribute is to put them into social positions where they cannot simply charge in and faceroll things, and have to work through others and share the load. Use them to distribute lower level mods to groups, and give them solid character reasons to want others to succeed, if only to uphold their own commitments.

The more we can make everyone's character a part of the world, and get them invested in it, the better the game is for everyone. High level characters are in a very strong position for this simply because they are powerful, and thus should have every NPC faction trying to use them, destroy them, or win their support.
 
Players are only going to contribute what they want. Railroading just makes players unhappy, imo.
Also, the BBEG doesn't have to be the biggest hitter on the field. Sometimes that level 4 with a bow pops the killing shot.
 
I like this question because it really shouldn't feel like we are trying to be the old bull being led to a end of life slaughter

At the same time it shouldn't feel like the small fish in the pond are in dire danger and the big fish are safe
 
Players are only going to contribute what they want. Railroading just makes players unhappy, imo.
Also, the BBEG doesn't have to be the biggest hitter on the field. Sometimes that level 4 with a bow pops the killing shot.

I'm not sure I follow. I know I agree that railroading is bad, but rewarding certain playstyles is still good. So plot shouldn't force high levels to make sure low levels have fun, but plot should still reward high levels for making the game better for low level players.
 
As a precursor; these are all the thoughts of Ali the Player, not any type of chairman ruling/opinion :).

From a plot perspective, I think it's a very tough sell; you cannot 'force' a player to do anything without some serious repercussions from an OOG perspective (Railroading, etc). It's also very, very hard for it to not feel 'forced.'

However, as a higher level player, I think there are some things we can do ourselves (character permitting) that usually bring more fun to the game. Especially for lower level players.

And that is being the teacher.

An example:
As Cantankerous Old Sarr (TM), if I am not engaged in an appropriate level fight, I will attempt to 'fighter backpack' lower level players who do not seem combat-confident. What this means is standing behind them/beside them, so they know they are not alone, but in turn, letting them fight whatever NPC has come up to them. I usually shout some confidence boosting stuff, go full defense, and then pat them on the back/offer encouragement when they've finished their NPC. I like to think this inspires confidence in timid lower level fighters/casters. I've also watched higher level healers do the same; and physically backpack those lower level players in a fight.

Essentially, we are teaching the new generation. Why not help them?

I've also seen other higher levels do this as a 'fighter practice' on Saturday mornings, or taking people under their wing to teach them how to cast rituals, or other parts of the game. To me, I honestly believe that mentoring is one of the best ways that higher levels can bring good content to all players, and shouldn't be forced through plot involvement.
 
I think we can and should encourage mentoring without forcing or railroading. Encouragement could be a gold piece, a pat on the back from the duke, a fistful of cure lights to distribute to new players, a module, a bit of plot info, etc.

To me, none of those rewards would force anyone to do something out of character. Just another way to put out treasure or plot info or whatever that doesn't ivolve chasing down skeletons for silver.
 
I don't even see it as railroading. High level characters, by virtue of both longevity and the power the represent, should have ties to the local government. The local government should absolutely be looking to make those ties, for better or for worse, because absolutely nothing overthrows countries like groups of PCs.

High level adventuring groups are inherently bigger threats than any BBG they face.
 
I'm not sure I follow. I know I agree that railroading is bad, but rewarding certain playstyles is still good. So plot shouldn't force high levels to make sure low levels have fun, but plot should still reward high levels for making the game better for low level players.

Plot shouldn't have to force high levels. Players should pick up that baton without having to have someone else using a carrot (or stick) to get things done. I know in out chapter myself and a few others hand out things and help out the newer players, but I never expect plot to do that. They already got enough on their plate.
Now, Plot should want to make sure the lower mobs are after the lower characters. But that is something else, imo.
 
Now, Plot should want to make sure the lower mobs are after the lower characters. But that is something else, imo.

I've sometimes seen this get messed up, but only because of a miscommunication between Plot and the PCs who were organizing the PC base, or because low level PCs want to hang out with their high level PC friends, or because the PCs decided to "balance" their groups, which was a pretty terrible decision, and Plot decided that there's gonna be some consequences for that choice, as there should be.
 
I always kind of mentored young, I also wasn't scared to push hooks I stumbled upon towards low level players. Charnal Juggernauts, been there done that. "You there I've seen you around and notice you can keep up on moderate fights, gather your friends and help this person out." Eventually though I retired Jonathan to be a member of the Ducal Court because I realized it was time to move on to a new pc and make room for the younger generation.
 
Plot shouldn't have to force high levels. Players should pick up that baton without having to have someone else using a carrot (or stick) to get things done. I know in out chapter myself and a few others hand out things and help out the newer players, but I never expect plot to do that. They already got enough on their plate.
Now, Plot should want to make sure the lower mobs are after the lower characters. But that is something else, imo.
I think we all agree that plot shouldn't force players. Players need choices.

I think we disagree on the carrots. One of the first rules if you want someone to do something is to make sure the desired behavior is rewarded, not punished. I guess I sound like a behaviorist. They are wrong about a bunch of stuff but not this.
 
So, I'm going to throw something weird out there, in my personal (not plot) opinion, the best carrot you can give players who are already doing this is to recognize them, especially with titling. Nobility titles to show that a player is already doing the things to organize and help other newer players is probably the best usage of titles I can think of.
 
So what do you do when your titles are all handed out and you have a high level player left out? How do you motivate them? You can hope they will mentor the young, but there is a challenge with what to do with a player that is an elder to plot, and a character that is an elder to the titled characters. It is very difficult. Control is not an answer, motivation is a must. For the life of me I think it is one of the hardest things to do. Also, it is a hard place to play the game from.

Joe S.
 
Also, it is a hard place to play the game from.

Joe S.

This is one thing I hope everyone takes to heart:

If it's not fun for you? Stop.

Come NPC, or make a new character; or take a break. We'll still be here.

Don't feel like game is a responsibility/duty/you -have- to go do x.

This organization is about people enjoying stories and having fun together as a community. It is important for the game to be -fun- for you (the player.).

Burn-out happens to the best of us. I promise, we'll still be here, and there are tons of stories to still tell from NPC camp, or from a new character.

-Ali
 
This is one thing I hope everyone takes to heart:

If it's not fun for you? Stop.

Come NPC, or make a new character; or take a break. We'll still be here.

Don't feel like game is a responsibility/duty/you -have- to go do x.
-Ali

While that is good advice for the player, I think the point to plot and other players needs to be triple underlined. That difficulty, it is real. So It is something that the new players, the low level characters, and the plot groups should also be aware of. There are allot of things Plot has to address, and allot of work for them to do. But every one deserves some attention and all the challenges deserve attention.

Joe S.
 
I will agree it is good to acknowledge what burnout looks like; however, it is not on the plot team to have to rectify the situation, unless it is within their own ranks. Especially when often, burn-out occurs without plot being openly aware of it, unless it is communicated by said player.

A plot team's mission is to reach as many of their player base as they can during a weekend. How spot on they can be in that process? I would say is a hit or miss situation, with numerous levers to be taken into account from both plot and player's perspectives.

I think it is important to note that in even small sized games, sometimes people can be overlooked. I sincerely doubt that it is -ever- intentional.

While I agree that everyone should stand equally in terms of plot availability and that challenges should be recognized, players should also take responsibility about their enjoyment of the game.

It is just as much your responsibility to come have fun at game, and bring fun for other players as well.

-Ali
 
So what do you do when your titles are all handed out and you have a high level player left out? How do you motivate them? You can hope they will mentor the young, but there is a challenge with what to do with a player that is an elder to plot, and a character that is an elder to the titled characters. It is very difficult. Control is not an answer, motivation is a must. For the life of me I think it is one of the hardest things to do. Also, it is a hard place to play the game from.

Joe S.

My own character story might be relevant here. I started in 1996 and the big fighter swang 12 magic. Around 12 years later I was swinging 12 magic. I was the biggest hitter one event. I realized my character should evolve into a new role.

What to do now that I am big? For various reasons my character dislikes nobles. I got into adventurer training to show the nobles what they should be doing.

It didn't work out too well and I felt it was too difficult and too unfun to keep at it. But coaching low levels could be an alternative to nobility for some high level characters.
 
It's one thing for plot members to ask this question in an attempt to make sure everyone feels like they had options, but it's another to come to game and passively sit around waiting for things to happen to you.

I like it best when fights won't come to the tavern. Hooks, sure. There was a job board in a few places I played. Find what entertains you and persue it, but it's plot's job to build the world, and the PC's responsibility to engage with it.

There's also nothing better than knocking on NPC Camp's door, telling them what you want to do, and getting a "ummmm... hold on a minute..." Followed by a "Sure! Give us an hour to finish some stuff up. Stay in town, we'll come find you."
 
The mistake I feel that I am seeing here is the word "noble".

In my experience with Alliance, there are only a handful of players that aspire to nobility, per se. But almost every character aspires to a title of some sort. For some that title is a noble rank, for others a military rank, for others guild titles, and for yet others things that most may not even consider a title (innkeeper, master alchemist, Chessmaster, Imperial floor sweeper).

If players aspire for a leadership position that naturally includes other players (especially lower level players), creating plot that works towards that position is a very organic way to get those players to work with lower level PCs.

-MS

P.S. - I think this also covers the point Joe S. made rather well. If you aren't limiting yourself to noble titles, there are always more titles to make up.
 
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