What are the rules requirements for speaking poorly? Do Barbarians have to speak English with bad grammar? Can they speak with accuracy but use simple grammar and vocabulary?
What does it mean to speak poorly?
- Thread starter James Trotta
- Start date
kittenpunk2
Scholar
I would think using smaller more simple words and slightly below average sentence construction would cover it.
Example
a human might "Bob the farmers barn is filled with bugs we need to go fight."
the barbarian might say " Bobs farm need help, go kill bugs now."
or at least that is my thought.
Example
a human might "Bob the farmers barn is filled with bugs we need to go fight."
the barbarian might say " Bobs farm need help, go kill bugs now."
or at least that is my thought.
(as in j/k)OrcFighterFTW
Spellsword
I try to stick to no more than 3 syllable words, eliminate definite articles, replace "I" with "Me" and generally avoid conjugating verbs.
It's all how you can consistently roleplay it.
It's all how you can consistently roleplay it.
What I hate is that "speak poorly" is so vague. Most people here seems to think it means grammar errors that even a 5-year-old child doesn't make (assuming a native speaker). Are we supposed to assume that barbarians stop progressing in their native language around the age of 4? Even then we wouldn't be using me in place of I.
Wraith said:
Joel Mathis
Artisan
it looks to me like it's not child language, but as though the barabrians had their own language and had to learn common, and being uncivilized made it more difficult to learn, so they speak poorly.
That's a possibility. In that case grammar errors would be required, but it would be exceedingly difficult for a native speaker to imitate the interlanguage of a learner so the rules requirement would just be "make some grammar errors". I personally would prefer to just speak simply (but accurately).
Joel Mathis said:
What do you mean by "simply" though... Some people suggested not to use any words with more than a few syllables. Let me translate the last post into this few syllables scheme.
original post by James:
"That's a possibility. In that case grammar errors would be required, but it would be exceedingly difficult for a native speaker to imitate the interlanguage of a learner so the rules requirement would just be "make some grammar errors". I personally would prefer to just speak simply (but accurately)."
My translation into "simple":
"That could be. In that case grammar errors would be needed, but it would be very hard for a native speaker to sound like someone just learning the language so the rule would just be "make some grammar errors". I would prefer to just speak simply (but still clearly)."
That doesn't sound like a barbarian at all to me. The longest word in the above text is 3 syllables long "language" and possibly "someone". The rest are all 1 or 2 syllables. And I don't think that the meaning is lost in any shape or form. So using small words doesn't actually make you sound any different. It might just make you sound like you have a small vocabulary. Definitely not to the point of "Ugh, me found shinies, me like shinies. Me give shinies to you, you give sword to me?" But that's always sounded more like caveman to me than barbarian.
If you listen to non-native speakers, you'll notice that verb conjugation, placement of adjectives and sentence structure are more likely to be wrong. They won't sound like complete idiots, but they might say something like "I would likes the drink of water" instead of "I would like a drink of water".
Anyways, to each his own.
original post by James:
"That's a possibility. In that case grammar errors would be required, but it would be exceedingly difficult for a native speaker to imitate the interlanguage of a learner so the rules requirement would just be "make some grammar errors". I personally would prefer to just speak simply (but accurately)."
My translation into "simple":
"That could be. In that case grammar errors would be needed, but it would be very hard for a native speaker to sound like someone just learning the language so the rule would just be "make some grammar errors". I would prefer to just speak simply (but still clearly)."
That doesn't sound like a barbarian at all to me. The longest word in the above text is 3 syllables long "language" and possibly "someone". The rest are all 1 or 2 syllables. And I don't think that the meaning is lost in any shape or form. So using small words doesn't actually make you sound any different. It might just make you sound like you have a small vocabulary. Definitely not to the point of "Ugh, me found shinies, me like shinies. Me give shinies to you, you give sword to me?" But that's always sounded more like caveman to me than barbarian.
If you listen to non-native speakers, you'll notice that verb conjugation, placement of adjectives and sentence structure are more likely to be wrong. They won't sound like complete idiots, but they might say something like "I would likes the drink of water" instead of "I would like a drink of water".
Anyways, to each his own.
kittenpunk2
Scholar
i no talk ok, wish i can talk better may you teach me more.
OrcFighterFTW
Spellsword
I don't see Barbarians as less-civilized Humans, but as more or less Neanderthals. In fact, the rules specifically say that Barbarians are not Humans (just like Elves are not Humans with pointy ears). They speak like the other less civilized and physically powerful races, High Orc and High Ogre. In manner of dress and life-style, they are also similar (although with more furs).
The resist element aspect also brings images of the Ice Age to my mind. With a focus on nomadic survival in the harsh, unforgiving elements and wilderness, it makes perfect sense to me that this race has not developed language as much as others who live comfortably in well-established towns, cities, and the rest (who then also have a chance to develop literature, law, politics, etc.) This is also why they pay double for read/write and read magic and get a bonus to body points, resist element, and resist fear.
In my experience, simplistic speech (and comprehension) and grammatical errors lead to in-game fun.
The resist element aspect also brings images of the Ice Age to my mind. With a focus on nomadic survival in the harsh, unforgiving elements and wilderness, it makes perfect sense to me that this race has not developed language as much as others who live comfortably in well-established towns, cities, and the rest (who then also have a chance to develop literature, law, politics, etc.) This is also why they pay double for read/write and read magic and get a bonus to body points, resist element, and resist fear.
In my experience, simplistic speech (and comprehension) and grammatical errors lead to in-game fun.
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Actually I would not call your translation simple at all. There are no words more than two syllables (not sure why you say there are) but the structure is not simple.
To translate your barbarian speak into my preferred barbarian speak: I found gold coins. I like em. You like em. You have a sword. I like it. I give you shinies. I get the sword?
This one has pretty standard grammar but I think most people would consider it speaking poorly - then again if I were sure I wouldn't be asking if grammar errors are required.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the example error but I know what I'm getting at. Learner interlanguage is extremely complex (I'm a linguist who studies this stuff)- if barbarians are supposed to sound like non-native speakers, all we can do is say "make grammar errors" and leave it at that.
To translate your barbarian speak into my preferred barbarian speak: I found gold coins. I like em. You like em. You have a sword. I like it. I give you shinies. I get the sword?
This one has pretty standard grammar but I think most people would consider it speaking poorly - then again if I were sure I wouldn't be asking if grammar errors are required.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the example error but I know what I'm getting at. Learner interlanguage is extremely complex (I'm a linguist who studies this stuff)- if barbarians are supposed to sound like non-native speakers, all we can do is say "make grammar errors" and leave it at that.
Madhawk said:
James Trotta said:
I have my degree in Linguistics from the University of Rochester.
By "interlanguage" I would assume that you are talking about the exposed language of a non-native speaker who is learning to speak that language? e.g. a native speaker of language A who is learning to speak language B? as in, Barbarians have a fully developed language (let's call it Barbar) who are trying to make themselves understood in Common? This might come out sounding like Yoda (who expresses himself in a way similar to the way German speakers express themselves in English -- German is a case language where the grammatical marker is used to mark case, and English is positional, where the relationship to the verb marks the case of the noun).
I don't think that is the assumption in our game. I would approach this more along the lines of what would the spoken language of sign-language using great apes (chimpanzees, gorillas, etc) sound like. Attend to verbal translations of the sign-communication of Sarah (who learned to use tokens for morphemes, or Washoe who learned 68 hand sign gestures ... and the compound words used innovatively to express meaning where a specific sign has not been taught/learned.
I remember hearing about Washoe's first experience in seeing a swan; she put together the signs for "water" and "bird" to describe the swan she saw. Washoe used simple grammar, but she used a grammar. She had a limited vocabulary of less than hundred words (68 signs, I think). But she expressed herself quite well and very consistently with the communication tools provided to her.
James Trotta said:
This I like... so when you said simple, I took it to mean, just use simple words. And then I set out to show that even just using simple words wasn't enough. This example of "simple" is great. The grammar is not faulty, it's just simple. Basic sentence structure and basic words.
With this and word constructs like Ondreij mentioned, I think you could get a pretty decent barbarian going.
If you face a troll or a goblin you could call them such. If you face an obsidian golem, you would call it black rock golem or something.
But now that brings me to a new question... what can barbarians understand? If I tell a barbarian "I find your conversational skills excruciatingly painful." What does he understand?
This is both very interesting and very complex the way you guys are approaching it. It's always seemed pretty simple to me, but clearly it's not for everyone. At the end of the day, barbarians aren't going to be giving an eloquent dissertation on, well, anything.. but precisely how that's played is up to the individual.
I've played a barbar for six years or so, and typically go more towards the "second language" feel than the "idiot that can't move past basic language skills", because that's interesting to me and more fun to roleplay. Other people go different directions because it's interesting for them and more fun to roleplay.
Leaving this kind of stuff ambiguous does cause confusion sometimes... but it also allows for a lot of creativity and interpretation from player to player, which for me is a lot of the fun of Alliance.
I've played a barbar for six years or so, and typically go more towards the "second language" feel than the "idiot that can't move past basic language skills", because that's interesting to me and more fun to roleplay. Other people go different directions because it's interesting for them and more fun to roleplay.
Leaving this kind of stuff ambiguous does cause confusion sometimes... but it also allows for a lot of creativity and interpretation from player to player, which for me is a lot of the fun of Alliance.
kittenpunk2
Scholar
Ondreij said:
I think i just herd charily Browns teacher talking???
I agree with you, in the point of one can express them self with select uses of pore grammar with out sounding like a cave man or playing the fool. the hard part is filtering all the information, knowing what to ignore, or how to express what you want to and gain the desired outcome on the spot... Wile staying with in the bounds of what the race is suppose be from the view of vocal restrictions.
i suppose it may come down to the application of the speech patterns over a period of time, something that can not just be said or told but worked on and developed.
yet at the same time some one running in to the tavern and yelling
"The towns under attack by carnivores endoplasmic forms we are bring flanked and must mount a counter defiance at once!"
as a barbarian i suppose the only thing from that that realty mattered is "the town is under attack, must defined!"
In short -- to "talk like a barbarian" confine yourself to a simple vocabulary with a smaller number of words (say, no more than 100). Use simple grammar: Noun-Verb, Noun-Verb-Noun. Noun-Modifier-Verb. Verb-Modifier. Verb-Modifier-Noun.
So, something like. Where you go? Me no like. We go fast. I make many dead goblin. You get food, I not hurt you. Me like make dead bad things. Swing weapon hard you do. and so on and so forth.
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And now for something completely different:
Remember, it's only 116 days until "International Talk Like a Pirate Day.
see: http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
So, something like. Where you go? Me no like. We go fast. I make many dead goblin. You get food, I not hurt you. Me like make dead bad things. Swing weapon hard you do. and so on and so forth.
------------------------
And now for something completely different:
Remember, it's only 116 days until "International Talk Like a Pirate Day.
see: http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html