Why no Earth/Necromancy Specialist?

[Eldor]

Why is Earth and Necromancy not included in the specialist effect groups? Evocation I understand, there is the Elementalist, but the Healer is not comparable. Why is it assumed that all earth casters want to be light combat town healers, some of us would love to be undead exploding monsters, and having a caster version of Champion of the living, or more accurately a Earth/Necromancy specialist would be an equivalent of the Elementalist for Earth casters.

Also this would fix the fact that there is no paragon for a necromancer, and there is no reason why they should be excluded. having a combination of treating earth/chaos carriers as normal while increasing undead harming/healing spells adding more earth/chaos storms and more life/corrupt spells would make for a potent Earth or Chaos battle caster, who could do to the undead or the living what the elementalist does to elementals.

 

[ASFDan]

You could probably think up a paragon class for just about every concept, but having one for every niche would encumber the system to the point of unplayability and the fact is the vast majority of players that roll earth scholars do so in order to be healers.

That said, it is not for nothing that I would take the healer paragon path were I playing a necromancer. The healing abilities (mostly) extend to undead minions as well as living, and the ability to drop any memorized spell for a Cause Wounds is pretty powerful.

Healer also works to a (admittedly lesser) degree for undead killers, but you need to think outside the box a bit. Now you don't need to memorize your "damage" spells, because you always have them handy. You're harder to kill thanks to the tier 4 benefits, which is bound to come in handy when you're putting yourself in harm's way. You're likely going to be close to the front lines, where the healing abilities will allow you to triage things until the dedicated healers get there. There *is* value everywhere in the tree, even if it's not designed specifically for the purpose.

Lastly, if you want to go full offensive as an earth scholar Specialist/Curse is pretty damn good looking, and I would anticipate curses being more useful against undead in 2.0 than they have been traditionally.

 

[Tantarus]

You could probably think up a paragon class for just about every concept, but having one for every niche would encumber the system to the point of unplayability and the fact is the vast majority of players that roll earth scholars do so in order to be healers.

Are you saying Necromancer is a niche in alliance? I mean really? Be all you cant be, Unless you want to be a evil PC that focuses on chaos/necromancy? I don't think people wanting a chaos focused paragon is a outlandish ask.

Lastly, if you want to go full offensive as an earth scholar Specialist/Curse is pretty damn good looking, and I would anticipate curses being more useful against undead in 2.0 than they have been traditionally.

So perhaps you should look at and support my old thread about curse functionality and streamlining found here:

https://alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/paralyze-and-death-curse-functionality.33582/

 

[Eldor]

The main problem with the "Healer" in this capacity it that the healers resolve pool, while it can be used for chaos, it may only be touch cast, so useless in combat, except to heal your half body skeletons, that still only swing for 2. So healers resolve will likely go entirely into converting it into spells.

Otherwise ASFDan, you do make some good points about how it could be used by someone who wanted to be a necromancer, it just really is not great for it.

As to the Earth side of the equation. While yes, there should not be a paragon path for all things, what I am bringing up is what I would consider to be one of three core earth builds. There is the dedicated town "Healer", there is the templar "Champion of the Living", yet there is no battle caster version for earth focused mainly against undead, the closest is a Curse specialist, which effects all creatures, not specifically undead.

So many people make the assumption that most earth casters want to be town healers, when in fact they become town healers or healing backpacks for others because there is little choice. No one complains if a Celestial caster unloads their spells into the enemy, but if an earth caster casts healing at the enemy it is viewed as wasted.

 

[Samyania]

It's like you guys are speaking directly to me. <3

 

[Tantarus]

It's like you guys are speaking directly to me. <3

Necromancer confirmed.

 

[Samyania]

Necromancer confirmed.

Hey, I thought we went over the whole Destroy Undead thing in another thread. That's definitely the only thing I was talking about agreeing with here. The only thing. That's it. For sure.

 

[Draven]

When I did an analysis of Specialist, I decided that Healer was the only real school that was worth it. Bumping LES down to 4th, moving Purify to 7th, and ES/Life to 8th meant that the impact of Healer-spec would be massive. It would positively impact Curse casting (by freeing up 9th, 8th, and 5th level slots) while also giving the option to augment the amount of healing someone can provide at 4th level and Purify at 7th level.

All other options are kinda garbage, IMHO, at least as far as Earth is concerned.

 

[ASFDan]

Are you saying Necromancer is a niche in alliance?

In the sense that players wanting to take their characters in that direction are rare and significantly outside the mainstream, yes I'm saying exactly that. Both necromancer and non-healer earth caster are niche roles, and while it might be neat to have paragon classes built to support them specifically might be neat it would also contribute significantly to rules bloat for marginal benefit.

 

[Saephis]

I guess I just don't see how we're intentionally shutting off players (And plot) from a route they may want to take by excluding "/Chaos" from printed rules whenever "Earth" or "Healing" is used. Ink ain't that expensive, and PDFs sure aren't.

 

[Tantarus]

In the sense that players wanting to take their characters in that direction are rare and significantly outside the mainstream, yes I'm saying exactly that. Both necromancer and non-healer earth caster are niche roles, and while it might be neat to have paragon classes built to support them specifically might be neat it would also contribute significantly to rules bloat for marginal benefit.

Yeah I guess one or two more to the 20 or so paragons would definitely push it over the edge into rules bloat....

And the reason there are not alot of non healer earth casters is because chaos is illegal and the owners actively have tried to push earth casters into a heal bot role. I actually didnt realize this was by intent rather then neglect until very recently. Back in the Nero days earth casters where just as capable battle magics. Before wands and golems gave celestial a huge advantage, and because healing/destroy undead where actually dangerous to big bad undead.

There is no reason that Healers cant be dnd cleric battle casters or earth templars cant be paladin like class except the choices of the owners have actively hindered those roles. It should be stated a lot more clearly in the rule book earth is for healing characters only, by design. I know I would have many different choices if I knew that was the intent.

I know of many earth casters in the NW that are frustrated with earth getting shoved into healbot status. Having taken the class thinking it could be used as a battle caster or undead slayer only to find out celestial is just alot more functional. Prison and golems are far better then anything earth has to offer in the fight against undead. Also wands giving celestial twice teh packs a day to throw. Also god forbid you area battling elementals which earth is a joke against.

Bleh it is super disheartening to finally have it come out that owners don't see earth casters as battlecasters but just as healbots.

"Be all you can't be, unless you want to be a offensive earth caster, then pick celestial."

 

[ASFDan]

I'm not a fan of the other options, at least as far as Earth is concerned.

That's fair, but it's a tough road to say another one should be added (not saying you are, but that's the topic of this thread, so trying to keep it in that area). There are already 23 paragon paths, 4 of them dedicated to scholars. As much as I hate the slippery slope argument, it fits well here; the same case could be made to add paragon paths for undead killer adepts, elementalist spellswords and adepts, there's no path for scroll/potion artisans, and on and on and on. At some point it's prudent to sit back and say 'yeah, we've probably covered enough of the field here' and move on.

There may be a case to be made that Specialist isn't a compelling option, and I think that may get more traction once there's some actual playtesting to back up all the theorycrafting, should someone want to advance that argument.

 

[Eldor]

Both necromancer and non-healer earth caster are niche roles

I would disagree that non-healer earth casters are a niche role. In all the years that I have played, over 20 now, at least half if not closer to 70% of earth casters want to be offensive, yet the social structure of Alliance corners them into being heal batteries for others.

The fact is earth casters start as healers because they don't have the skills to survive combat long, and their healing is limited, so precious, yet as they advance in levels they start to have more healing then they usually need, so many start to become more offensive with their healing spells. Is not the whole idea of paragon to be something that a high level character seeks to further identify themselves with. It only seems natural to me that a powerful earth caster with a stockpile of healing might seek out a more offensive path, then town healer.

 

[ASFDan]

Bleh it is super disheartening to finally have it come out that owners don't see earth casters as battlecasters but just as healbots.

Respectfully, I think you're romanticizing a bit. Earth casters have been fundamentally the same for 20+ years, give or take a few numbers tweaks. There's nothing new being revealed here.

 

[Eldor]

There are already 23 paragon paths, 4 of them dedicated to scholars. As much as I hate the slippery slope argument, it fits well here; the same case could be made to add paragon paths for undead killer adepts, elementalist spellswords and adepts, there's no path for scroll/potion artisans, and on and on and on. At some point it's prudent to sit back and say 'yeah, we've probably covered enough of the field here' and move on.

They don't have to add a paragon path, they would only need to add Earth/Necromancy to the specialist paragon options.

They could even get rid of elementalist and add Evocation to the Specialist options

 

[ASFDan]

I would disagree that non-healer earth casters are a niche role.

Feel free to disagree. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, just explaining why what you're asking is a tough slog and trying to provide alternative suggestions.

I'm happy to whip out my pedigree as well if that helps, but it feels unproductive and more than a bit tacky.

 

[Tantarus]

Respectfully, I think you're romanticizing a bit. Earth casters have been fundamentally the same for 20+ years, give or take a few numbers tweaks. There's nothing new being revealed here.

Wands have not been around for 20 years. Golems have not been around for 20 years (Useable by high magic). Those where the 2 big turning points. The schools where a lot more even before that. Celestial got those, What did earth get, rebirth while nice does nothing for actual game play and more healing in healing pool.

Undead where a lot more likely to die to cure morts or destroy undeads. Making earth actually dangerous and powerful against undead in that era.

High magic and wands pushed earth into a healer role from being on par with celestial in battlemagic. That along with the bloat of undead body pushed them out of their undead slayer niche.

 

[ASFDan]

They don't have to add a paragon path, they would only need to add Earth/Necromancy to the specialist paragon options.

That's a fair suggestion, but it's a little cumbersome given how Specialist is currently written given that it isn't designed to handle reversible spells. An argument could also be made that all you need to do is remove the touchcasting limitation from one or more of the Healer abilities.

They could even get rid of elementalist and add Evocation to the Specialist options

This seems less feasible, as the Elementalist path is as different from Specialist as Healer is.

 

[Muir]

Rebirth exists pretty much solely as a way to try to prevent a party wipe. It's an MMO-style self-rez so the healer can then rez the party rather than having to take the downtime to make a circle trip.

 

[ASFDan]

Wands have not been around for 20 years. Golems have not been around for 20 years (Useable by high magic). Those where the 2 big turning points. The schools where a lot more even before that. Celestial got those, What did earth get, rebirth while nice does nothing for actual game play and more healing in healing pool.

Undead where a lot more likely to die to cure morts or destroy undeads. Making earth actually dangerous and powerful against undead in that era.

High magic and wands pushed earth into a healer role from being on par with celestial in battlemagic. That along with the bloat of undead body pushed them out of their undead slayer niche.

I think you're either reading or responding to something that isn't there; all I said was that earth casters haven't changed, nor has the rules philosophy governing them, in basically ever. They've literally always been healers first, despite attempts to play them otherwise, and no one should feel surprised or blindsided by that now.