Does the Alliance system support diplomacy?

[jpariury]

I think you make my argument for me...

but that is not the assertion. the assertion was, "in a fight..." because lets face it, the baroness isn't going to be around forever, and what fun is it to not use that boffer you made.

really what you're saying is that you would survive more if you sat around and didn't get into fights just like something you said earlier, being a "sit-back" type

No, the argument was made was "Nobody ever died because they failed their diplomacy roll.", which I assert is false. Characters can and have died due to failing to be diplomatic. By the same token, characters who are skilled in diplomacy have succeeded in causing other characters (PC and NPC) to die, and furthermore, successful diplomacy has resulted in successfully surviving combat encounters.

That said, I do have to agree that the system does not support such, in that there are no rules for, say, the character being more diplomatic than the player is capable of being.

 

[Robb G]

Yes, in the sense that it allows for it.

No, in the sense that it does not offer skills to augment your lack of diplomacy in real life.

 

[markusdark]

Wouldn't such things as being a noble augment your ability? Or perhaps depending upon what group you are speaking to and what you are yourself. For example, a Dark Elf Alchemist would/should have a better response to diplomacy with a Dark Elf Alchemist group than he would with a Dark Elf group or Alchemist group. I think that the important part is to make sure that the NPC's know that they too can have other options other than, "You have to kill these guys." As well as plot creating quests that could allow for other options than total NPC erradication - instead of stealing ALL of the NPC's supplies, have them after just one or two items and that way they can bargain, etc.

Like I said elsewhere, people were stunned that Nigel got away from a group of Bugbears just by talking to them, and I give that totally onto the NPC's playing the parts.

 

[Robb G]

i guess i envision it this way... obviously an alchemist would have a better chance to talk with an alchemist guild and survive / complete X task.... but if the PC is bad at diplomacy OOG... if he just says, "hi guys, gimmey that cause i'm an alchemist".... well... we'll see you in the earth circle and rightly so.

i believe this is how it should be though. I wouldn't want some build-bought skill to replace the nuance of real life diplomacy IG (IE walk up to guild, hand over character card, bad guys walk away with their heads down because your rank in fictional diplomacy skill is better than theirs).

 

[dragonfire8974]

diplomacy is related completely to RP so the character cannot be more diplomatic than the character.

RP elements are determined more by the story tellers and NPCs than the rules system. I think the system doesn't even deal with social interactions which is the main reason why the larp is completely free form, but you would know more about that than I.

the problem with your argument is that it is purely anecdotal. I am sure that one time in the middle of combat people have stopped to talk and work out their problems with an NPC character, but usually when blows are exchanged there shouldn't be any stopping generally speaking. there are standoffs, but that person had just tried to kill you.

yeah characters can get allies, but no one is going to argue that allies do not help a character survive and no one will argue that diplomacy is useless. but to survive a fight you need parries/dodges/cloaks/banes etc, sitting around doing 2 normal doesn't cut it after level 5 when things start putting out slays, dominates, and high level celestial and necromantic magics.

 

[dragonfire8974]

I am not proposing the rules to put in a diplomacy because that would make everything far more complicated, i am just saying if you ask that alchemist for the thing you need, unless you threaten him/her and insult his/her mother they won't kill you on most accounts. people generally don't kill others unless there is a reason cause its one hell of a crime

 

[Duke Frost]

It's a live action game. The rules mechanics are there for things we can't do safely or at all (sword fighting, magic). There may be a few exceptions, like craftsman skills, but they only get you a couple silver and MIGHT affect plot writeups. If there was a diplomacy system, why not then just add in charisma scores and other stats and then eventually just stay home and play D&D or Dragon Age?

The plot team and NPCs take care of all that stuff. It might be in a writeup that the NPC in question will be more likely to work with gypsies or celestial mages or nobles or whatever. It works great as free form, IMO.

I've walked into and out of "combat" modules without the group unsheathing weapons or raising aura, later to have the plot person tell us they were totally surprised at how we handled it. And I've run mods and encounters where PCs have surprised me as well. It's a big part of the fun of the game.

And anyone can learn to roleplay and be "diplomatic" within the confines of the game and their character. They just have to be willing to try.

Scott

 

[Duke Frost]

I just remembered an example from our last weekend. I was playing a panthergaunt that was summoned by the villain. Pantherghasts spawned from me and the battle would basically stop when they took me out or the NPCs ran out of lives (they had a lot). BUT the PCs killed the villain that summoned me and then negotiated for me to leave, and then did not have to kill me or the remaining minions. They very likely saved some rezzes because they stopped 2-4 more lives per NPC by negotiating. The moment would not have been nearly as cool if there was some kind of diplomacy/persuasion system in place in which we compared stat cards or such. There was genuine fear and desperation in the air that would not have been there if it had been all about game mechanics.

Scott

 

[Fynwei]

I am not proposing the rules to put in a diplomacy because that would make everything far more complicated, i am just saying if you ask that alchemist for the thing you need, unless you threaten him/her and insult his/her mother they won't kill you on most accounts. people generally don't kill others unless there is a reason cause its one hell of a crime

Unless you're considering the other side of the coin: In some chapters, an NPC may be killed on a whim by a PC MUCH easier than the other way around. PCs don't always take morality into the equation and go with the exampled thought processes "they've got stuff I want, I've got power" (seen it) "He's really creepy, makes my skin crawl, but has done nothing illegal... I'm going to take care of this proactively" (seen it almost happen... a highly powerful NPC saved the creepy one) "This person is annoying, let's teach them a lesson" (heard of it, and I've done a version of it, but I waited for a real reason). Unfortunately, not all citizens (most especially PCs, IME) read and obey the rules of the land.

 

[David_Aselrik]

The alliance LARP mechanic system supports making characters powerful in combat. First of all, most purchasable skills make you more effective in combat. Their are only a few skills that are applicable out of combat like alchemy and gypsy curse. However, they also are effective in combat. Secondly, a character more powerful in combat is better able to resist getting killed. Because they are better able to resist getting killed, they can take more risks that usually give them the opportunity to get a reward. Thirdly, in the event that "diplomacy" (or RP) goes poorly, a more powerful combat character has a better chance of fighting their way out.

On the other hand, the alliance LARP mechanic system does not, in of itself, support characters through RP. First of all, while the book is quite clear on the fact that there are bad guys and you should go kill them for loot, it does not do the same for making alliances, having a rivalry, or even gambling. The only example of a reward I can find in the book is under nobility that implies you "may" get an income after achieving nobility. Secondly, the reward mechanic for RP between players is a zero sum game, somebody has to lose something for another to gain it, since all "rewards" are passed out by staff. Finally, a player can just keep their mouth shut and earn rewards through combat.

Here are some examples of the way some chapters and owners have created their own reward mechanics for "diplomacy." In one chapter, there is a system for trading, allowing you to make a merchant empire. In our chapter, you can use IBGAs to create recipes or get plot. The better your story, the better your reward. (However, both the recipes and plot require competency in combat). In our chapter, you can contribute to the war effort or train soldiers to better protect the town.

An example of a breakdown in the rules as written was when two NPCs came to our town proclaiming to have a secret alchemy recipe and were paying players to collect things for them. However, the NPCs didn't actually have money or know what their secret alchemy recipe was. When the question was pressed on both accounts, they broke character. The assumption is the players would kill monsters, not anything else.

 

[Wraith]

I am not proposing the rules to put in a diplomacy because that would make everything far more complicated, i am just saying if you ask that alchemist for the thing you need, unless you threaten him/her and insult his/her mother they won't kill you on most accounts. people generally don't kill others unless there is a reason cause its one hell of a crime

Unless you're considering the other side of the coin: In some chapters, an NPC may be killed on a whim by a PC MUCH easier than the other way around. PCs don't always take morality into the equation and go with the exampled thought processes "they've got stuff I want, I've got power" (seen it) "He's really creepy, makes my skin crawl, but has done nothing illegal... I'm going to take care of this proactively" (seen it almost happen... a highly powerful NPC saved the creepy one) "This person is annoying, let's teach them a lesson" (heard of it, and I've done a version of it, but I waited for a real reason). Unfortunately, not all citizens (most especially PCs, IME) read and obey the rules of the land.

Yeah, in my experience, the system supports diplomacy just fine. The players are just so intent on beating and robbing anything without an obvious big yellow exclamation point over it's head that this is never tested.

 

[wolfan]

I have played in games which have an actually diplomacy "system", and honestly didn't like it. Back a while ago I played a Vampire: The Masquerade LARP, the way it would work was based on how many points in a certain skill you had. For example I had a 11 social, if I was speaking with someone and trying to convince them to do something I could put out my hand and say "Social Challenge" and they would play Rock Paper Scissors with me, if I lost I could opt to try again and spend on of my social points for the night on that retry, if we tied we would compare skills in a "liar's dice" fashion (I could say I had less then the other person, as long as I thought it would beat him which would allow me to bluff how much of a skill I had.). If the challenger came out the winner then the victim would basically be more impressed with them or be more inclined to listen (depending on the effect chosen by the challenger).

The issue with this came to when things got heated every 10 seconds we were resolving challenges because everybody wanted to see if someone was lying, or try to impress someone, or try to manipulate the conversation. It sounds like it would all work in practice, but it get's really annoying when you come from a more traditional "boffer LARP" and you know that you know how to lie or bluff but people who you are playing with have a number of skills that make both of those real life skills obsolete.

So basically I see why someone would want there to be skills that noble have that make them able to be more diplomatic, but I think it's a flood gate.

 

[Talen]

Not as much as it could, but that's because so many encounters are written with combat as the default result, not alternatives.

On the other hand, it can happen. My first NERO event ended up with me "hiring" three NPC assassins (who then used me as bait and cover instead of mugging me because I was NICE), who ended up saving my life from a bunch of goblins, then they tried to kill a noble, I ended up being the scribe-of-the-moment at just the right time, and that in turn gave me the info that got me into the Mage's Guild as the Guildmistresses' apprentice- and I barely hit anything the whole time but spent most of my energy talking- negotiating paying my "guards" and making friends, keeping my head from being removed by a rather annoyed baron, and then talking my way through tea and cakes (literally) to earn a position.

Being a bloodthirsty pack of bastards is usually far more rewarding than it is dangerous to most adventurers, thus despite all the warnings, NPC's have abnormally short lifespans. That many "harmless" ones are written into mods as secret killing machines/monsters/evil bad guys just makes it worse.

But seriously, diplomacy is very much a roleplaying skill, not a "write into rulebook" one- though it really should get more use.

 

[Wraith]

Being a bloodthirsty pack of bastards is usually far more rewarding than it is dangerous to most adventurers, thus despite all the warnings, NPC's have abnormally short lifespans. That many "harmless" ones are written into mods as secret killing machines/monsters/evil bad guys just makes it worse.

Yeah, this is the killer right here. I am continually amazed that plot teams don't have the random merchants and the like who get rolled for their stuff rez and go track down the local nobility/magistrates and press a murder case. I think we, as players, get a lot more immured to the violence inherent to our characters' lifestyle than the characters ever could, thanks to the combat system being a bloodless and painless experience. After all, it's a lot easier for us to whack someone with pipe when we know the NPC player is going to just respawn, and we don't have to deal with being knee-deep in the corpses all the time.

 

[OrcFighterFTW]

If you can learn OOG skill with weapons with practice, you can also learn OOG social and diplomatic skills with practice. As an earlier post mentioned, the rules are for things that need clear explanations for simulated effects; it's not to completely level the playing field for OOG skills (for example, the rule book has an example of not playing a bard if you can't even carry a tune).

If this skill is something that interests you and you want to increase your OOG skill in it, there are many books available on negotiation strategy and theory- check out your local library or bookstore. Personally, I recommend the best-selling "Getting to YES: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William L. Ury of the Harvard Negotiation Project.

 

[Octaine]

Being a bloodthirsty pack of bastards is usually far more rewarding than it is dangerous to most adventurers, thus despite all the warnings, NPC's have abnormally short lifespans. That many "harmless" ones are written into mods as secret killing machines/monsters/evil bad guys just makes it worse.

Yeah, this is the killer right here. I am continually amazed that plot teams don't have the random merchants and the like who get rolled for their stuff rez and go track down the local nobility/magistrates and press a murder case. I think we, as players, get a lot more immured to the violence inherent to our characters' lifestyle than the characters ever could, thanks to the combat system being a bloodless and painless experience. After all, it's a lot easier for us to whack someone with pipe when we know the NPC player is going to just respawn, and we don't have to deal with being knee-deep in the corpses all the time.

I can roll the merchant, take his wears, give him an A-juice. I dont have to kill him.

 

[Duke Frost]

Being a bloodthirsty pack of bastards is usually far more rewarding than it is dangerous to most adventurers, thus despite all the warnings, NPC's have abnormally short lifespans. That many "harmless" ones are written into mods as secret killing machines/monsters/evil bad guys just makes it worse.

Yeah, this is the killer right here. I am continually amazed that plot teams don't have the random merchants and the like who get rolled for their stuff rez and go track down the local nobility/magistrates and press a murder case. I think we, as players, get a lot more immured to the violence inherent to our characters' lifestyle than the characters ever could, thanks to the combat system being a bloodless and painless experience. After all, it's a lot easier for us to whack someone with pipe when we know the NPC player is going to just respawn, and we don't have to deal with being knee-deep in the corpses all the time.

Not to sound condescending, but this sounds like the mark of a newer chapter, with younger and/or newer players overexcited for combat. This hasn't been an issue in the older chapters for quite some time.

NPCs have come back and pressed charges in our chapter. A knight was asked to step down because his court killed an NPC, players have been fined or executed for murdering NPCs. The rulebook states very clearly you should treat NPCs and PCs the same. If you are going to be a bad guy that kills everyone that walks into town, you should need to be very slick about it or the IG judicial/law system should investigate.

On the other hand, people have gained IG allies and advantages for working with NPCs. We have NPCs that will only give items, treasure or information for good roleplay. Our most popular mod last weekend was one with zero combat that was run about 5 times.

It's far easier to distribute treasure, or plot (which IMO is the real treasure of the game) by sending out battles and random damage. It takes more thought and work to run good roleplay.

Scott

 

[Gilwing]

Being a bloodthirsty pack of bastards is usually far more rewarding than it is dangerous to most adventurers, thus despite all the warnings, NPC's have abnormally short lifespans. That many "harmless" ones are written into mods as secret killing machines/monsters/evil bad guys just makes it worse.

Yeah, this is the killer right here. I am continually amazed that plot teams don't have the random merchants and the like who get rolled for their stuff rez and go track down the local nobility/magistrates and press a murder case. I think we, as players, get a lot more immured to the violence inherent to our characters' lifestyle than the characters ever could, thanks to the combat system being a bloodless and painless experience. After all, it's a lot easier for us to whack someone with pipe when we know the NPC player is going to just respawn, and we don't have to deal with being knee-deep in the corpses all the time.

I don't know what chapters you played in but this is not the case in any chapter I have played in. They will come back and seek justice even if they are advocates of necromancy (long story but a funny one).

 

[Robb G]

I don't know what chapters you played in but this is not the case in any chapter I have played in. They will come back and seek justice even if they are advocates of necromancy (long story but a funny one).

haha! good times. (i was one of the original brotherhood who did this in Ashbury)

 

[James Trotta]

Like players sometimes, NPCs will seek justice they don't deserve. I remember some NPC "farmer Joe" type coming into town and stealing a few silver or gold or something from a guy on our team. The guy beats down the farmer, takes his money back, heals him, and sends him on his way. The farmer goes to the magistrate and the magistrate fines our friend 10 gold for battery. The proper thing to do was let this stranger you've never seen before and will never see again walk away with your gold while you go find a noble so you can press charges.

I don't know what chapters you played in but this is not the case in any chapter I have played in. They will come back and seek justice even if they are advocates of necromancy (long story but a funny one).