High magic and power levels

[Gilwing]

I'm guessing you're talking about Magic Augmentation here? Because I genuinely have no idea how High Magic otherwise makes you less reliant on other people than you'd normally be. Unless you're talking about Cloaks/Banes, but martial classes get Parries/Dodges/Ripostes, so I don't think you meant that.

HM are rituals that a purchased with build.
HM duplicates magic items. If the argument is there for magic items ruining the game due to a progression of power, the same cab 100% be said about HM.

P.S. I'm a very high level character that uses HM so I do have experience with it.

P.P.S. I agree with what Joe S. Said

 

[Alavatar]

I remember a time when people complained about magic items duplicating build. Now, the argument is that build is duplicating magic items. It's a circle.

 

[Draven]

HM are rituals that a purchased with build.
HM duplicates magic items. If the argument is there for magic items ruining the game due to a progression of power, the same cab 100% be said about HM.

P.S. I'm a very high level character that uses HM so I do have experience with it.

P.P.S. I agree with what Joe S. Said

So, you're saying that build-purchased skills are ruining the game because they function like magic items?

Really?

 

[norman b]

I think what he is saying is that HM mimics magic item effects which no other build based skill does. This creates a point of jealousy (possibly) which high level fighters, rogues and scouts can not duplicate, therefore could be seen as "ruining" the game for those players? Just conjecture but I can see some people feeling this way.

 

[Gilwing]

I think what he is saying is that HM mimics magic item effects which no other build based skill does. This creates a point of jealousy (possibly) which high level fighters, rogues and scouts can not duplicate, therefore could be seen as "ruining" the game for those players? Just conjecture but I can see some people feeling this way.

Reread my P.S. I'm not jealous and I don't think others are.
My main issue is that if MI's are so terrible because they duplicate build, the same goes for HM as it does the same thing that MI's do. For your 3-4 build (depending on your class) you cast powerful ritual magics. Then you can cast some of those rituals for the cost of 1-2 reagents (as if you were a dragon mage minus the comp). Then you get the bonus of being able to wear Arcane Armor past your class limit. Then you get to have all these other nifty tools at your disposal like cloaking any thing you pick at logistics (you can even wait till the 2nd logistics, Saturday to pick depending on how the event is going. Ex. is heavy sleep event.), baneing, casting a Purify or Dispel while Silenced (huh?). Do you realize the power of that? The bane of existence for casters is the dreaded Silence. Not any more because of HM.

 

[Draven]

Reread my P.S. I'm not jealous and I don't think others are.
My main issue is that if MI's are so terrible because they duplicate build, the same goes for HM as it does the same thing that MI's do.

This is a logical fallacy, because I could also say that the problem with Weapon Proficiencies is that they duplicate Damage Auras. It is literally a circular argument.

For your 3-4 build (depending on your class) you cast powerful ritual magics.

More like for my 3 - 4 build, I can read scrolls. If I could realistically cast every ritual ever at any difficulty ever for only 3 - 4 build, I'd consider this a better argument. But I can't, really. I currently have 96 build invested in Formals, and I still get ignored as a caster because I can't True Empower the "Good Stuff." But that's a gripe for another day.

Then you can cast some of those rituals for the cost of 1-2 reagents (as if you were a dragon mage minus the comp).

Suuuuuure, but...are you really willing to throw away that many components on it? Because that gets expensive really quick. The only thing I ever spellcraft are Spirit Recalls and Limited Circles, because everything. I mean, if you have a bunch of components just sitting around, and a bunch of scrolls, and you really, really, really want to feel INCREDIBLY POWERFUL for that event...I guess you could blow a bunch of HM on Spellcraft. But man...that's...so many components gone. So many. Also, some rits can't be crafted (the aura rituals come to mind).

Then you get the bonus of being able to wear Arcane Armor past your class limit. Then you get to have all these other nifty tools at your disposal like cloaking any thing you pick at logistics (you can even wait till the 2nd logistics, Saturday to pick depending on how the event is going. Ex. is heavy sleep event.), baneing, casting a Purify or Dispel while Silenced (huh?). Do you realize the power of that? The bane of existence for casters is the dreaded Silence. Not any more because of HM.

The Arcane Armor benefit is pretty sweet. I won't argue that. But I sorta think that as a caster gets higher level, they need a boost in their defenses to deal with the fact they're fighting guys swinging 10s instead of swinging 2s and 3s. This is pretty much the case in every game where stuff "scales upwards," in that even casters get defensive boosts. For Alliance, that translates into Arcane Armor boosts, Cloaks/Banes for casters, more Parries/Dodges for martial classes. And if you happen to know how the event is going to lean, you can focus your picks towards that. However, HM doesn't get you -that many- Cloaks. As a character approaching 28th level with 6 columns, I get 3 Cloaks. If I happen to be fighting undead, do I go necromancy cloaks? But even undead can throw spells. So maybe Binding? Who knows. The point is that there are events where I burn a couple HM Cloaks. There are events I burn none of them. I've had to use my Magic Augment a few times.

So, yeah, these things are useful. Way useful. Way more useful than the actual Ritual Casting portion of Formals. Because if HM didn't exist, then other than as a sweet RP skill, I'd put 15 build into Wear Extra Armor and the remaining 81 build into 3+ columns, and Seattle would be out its biggest active Earth formalist.

 

[Muir]

Let's face it. The real face of power progression in the Alliance is, above and beyond all else, stacked defenses. Cloaks, banes, and the all-purpose best available 'Activate Dodge'.

NPCs will always have more offense and more pops.

 

[Muir]

If High Magic was the primary source of Banes and Cloaks, I would agree with you, but it manifestly isn't as they are more common in the hands of non-formalists.

 

[James Trotta]

If High Magic was the primary source of Banes and Cloaks, I would agree with you, but it manifestly isn't as they are more common in the hands of non-formalists.

I'm not sure what you agree with and/or what you would agree with if high magic were the primary source of cloak/bane. But I'll take this as an invitation to elaborate anyway. A high level scholar might have a 12 block and 20 formal - good for 6 cloaks and 4 banes and a couple magic purify / dispel (18 formal needed I think). That is a crap ton of staying power.

Now if you're saying that cloaks and banes on a front line fighter do more to break the game than cloaks and banes on a back line caster, I agree. But the existence of so many cloaks / banes -from both high magic and magic items- seems to mean more packet delivered take out effects. More packet delivered take out effects seems to lead to more frustration at lower levels since the lower levels are the ones who probably don't have tools to stay in the fight.

It's a slippery slope argument with too little data to support it, I know. But it's my best guess at explaining the OPs frustration.

Edit - since this post was moved, the OP I refer to is not the first post in this thread.

 

[Gilwing]

This is a logical fallacy, because I could also say that the problem with Weapon Proficiencies is that they duplicate Damage Auras. It is literally a circular argument.

Except DA and profs have been out for years, is available to any one (and passable from person to person) and has a limit. It was not a response to players complaining that they are "wasting their build on a rarely used skill".

More like for my 3 - 4 build, I can read scrolls. If I could realistically cast every ritual ever at any difficulty ever for only 3 - 4 build, I'd consider this a better argument. But I can't, really. I currently have 96 build invested in Formals, and I still get ignored as a caster because I can't True Empower the "Good Stuff." But that's a gripe for another day.

But for your 3-4 build you still get benefits from HM so your point is a bit moot.
I'm glad you mentioned True Empowerment, another HM ability. See my point? Players don't want to come to you because of True Empowerment.

Suuuuuure, but...are you really willing to throw away that many components on it? Because that gets expensive really quick. The only thing I ever spellcraft are Spirit Recalls and Limited Circles, because everything. I mean, if you have a bunch of components just sitting around, and a bunch of scrolls, and you really, really, really want to feel INCREDIBLY POWERFUL for that event...I guess you could blow a bunch of HM on Spellcraft. But man...that's...so many components gone. So many. Also, some rits can't be crafted (the aura rituals come to mind).

I have a bag filled with about 20-30 comps that are going to expire so sure I'm willing to use them. Its not a matter of cost, its a matter of what you CAN do with HM. BTW Reverse Life Force spellcrafted FTW, twice of course.

The Arcane Armor benefit is pretty sweet. I won't argue that. But I sorta think that as a caster gets higher level, they need a boost in their defenses to deal with the fact they're fighting guys swinging 10s instead of swinging 2s and 3s. This is pretty much the case in every game where stuff "scales upwards," in that even casters get defensive boosts. For Alliance, that translates into Arcane Armor boosts, Cloaks/Banes for casters, more Parries/Dodges for martial classes. And if you happen to know how the event is going to lean, you can focus your picks towards that. However, HM doesn't get you -that many- Cloaks. As a character approaching 28th level with 6 columns, I get 3 Cloaks. If I happen to be fighting undead, do I go necromancy cloaks? But even undead can throw spells. So maybe Binding? Who knows. The point is that there are events where I burn a couple HM Cloaks. There are events I burn none of them. I've had to use my Magic Augment a few times.

The boost in their defense is to have friends to have as protection. That's the game. The level 100 fighter w/o Magic items is a two spell kill. That is the weakness of the Fighter. The casters weakness...low armor. Gone with HM. As for numbers of cloaks & Banes, at least you can take 3 of em. If you don't take formals you can't have any. In my book 3 is far greater then 0.

So, yeah, these things are useful. Way useful. Way more useful than the actual Ritual Casting portion of Formals. Because if HM didn't exist, then other than as a sweet RP skill, I'd put 15 build into Wear Extra Armor and the remaining 81 build into 3+ columns, and Seattle would be out its biggest active Earth formalist.

You said that you already get ignored as a caster, so it doesn't seem like they are missing you (this is not meant to be a jab or a blow towards you, just mentioning what you stated).

 

[Alavatar]

I feel like the debate of HM being overpowered is akin to making a mountain out of a mole hill. Sure, it adds survivability, but you would get more power per build by buying more spells, in my opinion. A min/max character concept would only have enough HM to maximize its use and no more, which essentially makes you not a formal caster except for basic rituals. To be honest, I don't see many min/max casters in SEA/OR. Actually, I don't think there are any in SEA/OR; most characters have more formal than they use for the survivability and several have less formal than could give them benefit (stopping at 15). That is also assuming a pure caster; the Templars/Adepts are even more out-of-sync with min/max builds. Is min/max more prevalent further East? I am trying to understand how pervasive the issue is before coming to the judgement that it is OP (which I don't currently believe).

And 30 armor is nothing in high level play. It slows down the impact of a carrier, sure, but that is all. A mid-high level Slay and Assassinate will still take most casters out in one hit (assuming they have been tapped to remove the Magic Armor).

 

[James Trotta]

I don't want to be involved in a debate - originally I got involved (in the other thread) just to say that a fighter has 2 ways to stay in the fight longer - cloak / bane MIs and teammates. Rogues have MIs, teammates, and dodge. Templars and scholars have MIs, teammates, and high magic. Adepts have MIs, teammates, dodge, and HM.

I think any source (all two of them?) of cloaks / banes is powerful and lessens your reliance on teammates. In my previous example I had "a high level scholar might have a 12 block and 20 formal - good for 6 cloaks and 4 banes and a couple magic purify / dispel (18 formal needed I think)." Or the player could do a 14 block with extras and give up formal. I don't see why the extra columns would be more powerful than 6 cloaks, 4 banes, and 2 get out of jail free.

Is the extra defense a problem? I don't know for sure, but possibly. Are scholars supposed to be super awesome at defense? Would fewer cloaks / banes mean fewer take out effects and more fun for low level players?

I feel like the debate of HM being overpowered is akin to making a mountain out of a mole hill. Sure, it adds survivability, but you would get more power per build by buying more spells, in my opinion. A min/max character concept would only have enough HM to maximize its use and no more, which essentially makes you not a formal caster except for basic rituals. To be honest, I don't see many min/max casters in SEA/OR. Actually, I don't think there are any in SEA/OR; most characters have more formal than they use for the survivability and several have less formal than could give them benefit (stopping at 15). That is also assuming a pure caster; the Templars/Adepts are even more out-of-sync with min/max builds. Is min/max more prevalent further East? I am trying to understand how pervasive the issue is before coming to the judgement that it is OP (which I don't currently believe).

And 30 armor is nothing in high level play. It slows down the impact of a carrier, sure, but that is all. A mid-high level Slay and Assassinate will still take most casters out in one hit (assuming they have been tapped to remove the Magic Armor).

 

[Avaran]

I don't want to be involved in a debate - originally I got involved (in the other thread) just to say that a fighter has 2 ways to stay in the fight longer - cloak / bane MIs and teammates. Rogues have MIs, teammates, and dodge. Templars and scholars have MIs, teammates, and high magic. Adepts have MIs, teammates, dodge, and HM.

Spell Parry for Templar and Fighters (and anyone with a Parry one-shot item)

Also, Templar, Adepts, and Scholars have access to things like Spell Shield and Reflect Magic (and Elemental Shield for those fights), in addition to all of those things you mentioned.

 

[James Trotta]

Spell Parry for Templar and Fighters (and anyone with a Parry one-shot item)

Also, Templar, Adepts, and Scholars have access to things like Spell Shield and Reflect Magic (and Elemental Shield for those fights), in addition to all of those things you mentioned.

What a mess - someone might hve to move these posts back to the other thread

We can add spell parry although the original post in the other thread was complaining about nausea I think. The last time I got taken out of a fight it was arcane fears and arcane feebleminds by voice. The players with cloaks and banes were better off than the rogue with 7 dodges.

Protectives too, but really unless you can recast them on yourself, protectives are pretty unreliable.

But yeah, spell parries are good for fighter types. So are activate poison shield, spell shield, magic armor, bind, disarm, enflame, web, etc. So are potions. So are scrolls if you can read them.

 

[MaxIrons]

HM are rituals that a purchased with build.
HM duplicates magic items. If the argument is there for magic items ruining the game due to a progression of power, the same cab 100% be said about HM.

P.S. I'm a very high level character that uses HM so I do have experience with it.

P.P.S. I agree with what Joe S. Said

I don't want to do rules theory debate here, that's why I opened up the other board, so I'm going to open this up as a debate topic there and post my ideas on the matter.