[0.8] Chaining Martial Skills

That's my take on it, but I see how swarm could help automate that for others, again for me I just don't like the effect it has on lower powered PCs.

To echo a bit of Tony's point, while a NPC is using the swarm ability they still take damage and effects. The people that can take the swarmed action will continue to stay and take it while dishing out their damage and the underpowered will either take it and suffer or run.

the idea of putting an artifact shield with a "swarmed by- some defensive ability" in game to be used by one of our defensive "I hold the door while y'all escape" "heroes" is an appealing one. It'all likely only be used once (cause that'll likely send them to the circle and loose it), but how much cooler is "I held the door for six minutes and everyone escaped" than "I was a thirty second speed bump and only three people were chased down"...

This scares me. I feel that a PC should NEVER have this skill. The situation you mentioned JP can still be accomplished today using the current rules, it just takes some critical thinking instead of using an item that others couldn't. I'm never a fan of giving one or two pc's "super hero powers/npc powers". While it makes them feel cool, it makes the rest not.
 
To echo a bit of Tony's point, while a NPC is using the swarm ability they still take damage and effects. The people that can take the swarmed action will continue to stay and take it while dishing out their damage and the underpowered will either take it and suffer or run.



This scares me. I feel that a PC should NEVER have this skill. The situation you mentioned JP can still be accomplished today using the current rules, it just takes some critical thinking instead of using an item that others couldn't. I'm never a fan of giving one or two pc's "super hero powers/npc powers". While it makes them feel cool, it makes the rest not.


I'm going to disagree. I think giving a player the chance to have that heroic "last stand" moment can be awesome. If the moment is relatively brief, and guaranteed to come at a significant cost to the user, by all means, let them pay for that ride. I think, in the large scale of things, its those shining moments that can help create some amazing stories, and those stories are incredibly important to the game. Those stories are what give characters and players ambition, dreams, and motivation.

It's one thing to make a fight entirely about one person's triumph. It's another thing entirely to make a fight about one person's sacrifice.
 
Again this draws me back to the idea that our rules should attempt to minimize judgment calls on the field due to defined effects.

Swarmed will require rules for what is considered engagement (+1 to barrier to entry), when you have to define additional rules just to support a single effect, especially one that can be handled in so many other ways, you are creating additional opportunities for missed calls.
Missed calls lead to loss of player engagement.

Here's my scenario:
I pick up shield of the defender!
It has swarm:4 immune to weapon attacks

I get my team to "backpack" me against the BBG. He is swinging massive, and has some neat spell effects.

When I engage him my teammates keep my defenses up, but also keep attacking
Me from behind. I am engaged.

EVAN THEN CALLS ME OUT FOR CHEESE, and it is intoned that I am skirting the "spirit" of the concept. This causes additional stress for everyone involved.

The point is, Swarmed only works as a tool if you allow it to be lazy, and used without judgment. If we are going to have to create additional dialogue around a specific ability for the sake of just in case these specific scenarios happen we are going in knowing that we are not crafting
an optimal gaming experience.

@EC-JP, I can't say thank you enough to the owners, and ARC members that have put a ton of time into making this set. I don't mean to use your example as my anti-gun commercial, but as it is currently, I find it highly replaceable without need for additional conditional rules.

I.e. I pick up shield of the defender!
it has a note on it explaining it's effect:
as long as my feet are planted on a three count I can activate shield of the defender, as long as my shield is able to be properly wielded and my feet are planted I can auto riposte, and auto reflect for up to 300 seconds, if either of those conditions end, or the timer completes, my body is destroyed as if reaching the full 5 minutes of a death count.

To me that seems far more epic than Swarm 4: auto reflect/riposte (C)

I understand, and can appreciate the intent behind the allure of simplification, but as long as it requires additional specific rule handling, or circumstantial subjective calls, it is my opinion that it is a poorly designed tool.

You need to hang a frame. You have a hammer and nails, you have the knowledge and ability to use said tools. It seems like everyone is advocating that you go buy a nail gun because it is more convenient (even if it backfires every now and then)

-Tony
 
I'm going to disagree. I think giving a player the chance to have that heroic "last stand" moment can be awesome. If the moment is relatively brief, and guaranteed to come at a significant cost to the user, by all means, let them pay for that ride. I think, in the large scale of things, its those shining moments that can help create some amazing stories, and those stories are incredibly important to the game. Those stories are what give characters and players ambition, dreams, and motivation.

It's one thing to make a fight entirely about one person's triumph. It's another thing entirely to make a fight about one person's sacrifice.

An "epic death" to add to your perm story sure. To just add a death to your card, meh *shrugs*. I still feel that you can still be cool and EPIC with out the MI of Coolness. Coming up with creative ways to make stuff happen is epic in it self and should be rewarded. I feel this should come easy as Alliance players are already "out of the box" thinkers.
 
I see it more as a laser level: it has a specific, limited function which it does very, very well but should not come out of the box for most jobs.

Just don't look directly at it ;P
 
An "epic death" to add to your perm story sure. To just add a death to your card, meh *shrugs*. I still feel that you can still be cool and EPIC with out the MI of Coolness. Coming up with creative ways to make stuff happen is epic in it self and should be rewarded. I feel this should come easy as Alliance players are already "out of the box" thinkers.

Put another way, if this artifact came out, and a player made the choice to use it to save the day, do you feel it would impact your personal enjoyment of the game?
 
Put another way, if this artifact came out, and a player made the choice to use it to save the day, do you feel it would impact your personal enjoyment of the game?

Depends. If we came up with a great idea that would work to "save the day" and the player said, "No no! I'll just use my MI Of Coolness". Yea it might bother me but then again if its some one my character doesn't like, sure take the death for us, thanks *Thumbs up*. I'm not every one, you'd have to ask them. I will say (as I mentioned prior) that giving a handful of players select super powers makes every one else feel less cool (from expierence as well as what players have mentioned on these boards).
 
@Dan Nickname Beshers maybe a gas powered laser level, that requires certification to use :D

Secondarily, don't knock nails in with a laser level, go get your hammer!

I swear I don't get paid for this comedy.

Sorry for the terrible coding but I'm doing this all from my phone on planes (which explains my long and drawn out posts, I literally have nothing to do but sit here for 5 hours and think about this stuff!)


My issues remain that it doesn't fall in line with the following train of logic which I think Polare put best-
The drive to go to 2.0 came originally from the Owners, not ARC, and around correcting the many, many inconsistencies and exceptions in the ruleset. After discussion with the Owners, ARC expanded the scope in an aim to make the game friendlier to new players and remove redundancies as well as exceptions. Over many many years the game had had pieces added on and added on without any fundamental changes, resulting in a lot of bloat and confusion that both makes the game more difficult for no reason and turns new players away. Finally, where possible, we wanted to encourage more teamwork among players where especially the high-level game has become dominated by "do everything at once" characters.


For this power to work, you must add bloat. It adds confusion as to what specifies engagement. Creates a strong case for arguments on the field, and as we have recieved negative feedback out here in the NW after its use, it has shown to push new players away. Lastly, it doesn't encourage teamwork, but if you need those do everything highbies to hang a picture in your living room while everyone else watches, give them a laser level, if they know how to use it correctly, I am sure all the other players will marvel at what a straight frame you have on the wall! I don't mind if my frame is a little crooked as long as everyone I invited over for the hanging got a chance to participate :D

@Dan Nickname BBeshers- also I'm not trying to be mean! I loved the game you guys ran, and took so much away from it. The idea of creating a broader toolkit is not lost on me, I'm a tool guy. I love thinking up new ways to make things unique and interesting. I just don't like adding additional rules dialogue for such little benefit. It is nice to see you guys so involved though in the process regardless of if we agree or not :)

-Tony
 
I have to admit that Tony's more or less brought me around to his way of thinking.

And while @norman b and I disagree as to the level of impact that Swarmed would have had during a recent event, I have to agree that, at least, it's certainly a mechanic rife with the opportunity to be abused, and it does have the requirement that the NPC must be hyper-aware of the number of opponents facing them, and may not be aware when that number significantly changes.

I think this is less of an issue when the number is...4? Noticing when four drops to three isn't too bad. Noticing when eight drops to seven? That might be missed. Also, if a PC is aware that an NPC has Swarmed abilities, and suspects the NPC is using them for the incorrect number, it can definitely cause holds.

"Hey bro, there's only five of us...you -suuuuure- about that?" - That's a hold.

PC rogue runs up, drops an Assassinate, runs off in the direction he came. NPC activates Swarmed thinking PC remained (cuz it's dark, and it happened from his back, and everything is a cluster). Realizing he activated it incorrectly, he lets the PCs know not to take some of those Ripostes he just used - That's a hold.

6 PCs engage, NPC activates Swarmed <Channel Death at will>. He hits four different PCs in a row, but the first one died. Hold happens, while Marshals confer if that means the last three took effect.

6 PCs engage, NPC activates Swarmed <Channel Confine at will>. He hits four different PCs in a row, but the first one landed. Hold happens, while Marshals confer if that means the last three took effect, as the first one "disengaged" the PC.

Am I right in assuming this seem like they'd be commonplace holds?
 
Put another way, if this artifact came out, and a player made the choice to use it to save the day, do you feel it would impact your personal enjoyment of the game?

I'll be honest, it would bug the hell out of me, because it takes the point that matters off the characters and onto a piece of gear.
 
I'll be honest, it would bug the hell out of me, because it takes the point that matters off the characters and onto a piece of gear.

I dunno about you, but I've never been saved by a shield that I left behind in a tavern.

I guess I could rig it up with a trap, though.
 
Yeah, unless we specifically codified what engagement means. If it is too vague, it leads to further clarification and complication in the future. Secondarily it is a new set of rules that player must learn because this one specific ability exists. Any tool that requires it's own special set of rules and exceptions should not be considered if the intent is to remove special rules and exceptions (CSS much?). Ultimately I think conversations like these are so important for these reasons.

Limited playtests without view of why someone else might not have liked or enjoyed a certain aspect of a system can lead to false positives. If people don't discuss their concerns openly, things can pass without ever being truly vetted as an abundance of responders might have only seen a limited or partial version of item X. So while I know rules arguments on the forums have been viewed negatively in the past. Thanks for allowing us this opportunity with this new set.

-Tony
 
I dunno about you, but I've never been saved by a shield that I left behind in a tavern.

I guess I could rig it up with a trap, though.

On the other hand, I've seen items with cards that required half a page of 8.5x11, and were by build equivalency 20th level characters on their own right.
 
I have to admit that Tony's more or less brought me around to his way of thinking.

And while @norman b and I disagree as to the level of impact that Swarmed would have had during a recent event, I have to agree that, at least, it's certainly a mechanic rife with the opportunity to be abused, and it does have the requirement that the NPC must be hyper-aware of the number of opponents facing them, and may not be aware when that number significantly changes.

I think this is less of an issue when the number is...4? Noticing when four drops to three isn't too bad. Noticing when eight drops to seven? That might be missed. Also, if a PC is aware that an NPC has Swarmed abilities, and suspects the NPC is using them for the incorrect number, it can definitely cause holds.

"Hey bro, there's only five of us...you -suuuuure- about that?" - That's a hold.

PC rogue runs up, drops an Assassinate, runs off in the direction he came. NPC activates Swarmed thinking PC remained (cuz it's dark, and it happened from his back, and everything is a cluster). Realizing he activated it incorrectly, he lets the PCs know not to take some of those Ripostes he just used - That's a hold.

6 PCs engage, NPC activates Swarmed <Channel Death at will>. He hits four different PCs in a row, but the first one died. Hold happens, while Marshals confer if that means the last three took effect.

6 PCs engage, NPC activates Swarmed <Channel Confine at will>. He hits four different PCs in a row, but the first one landed. Hold happens, while Marshals confer if that means the last three took effect, as the first one "disengaged" the PC.

Am I right in assuming this seem like they'd be commonplace holds?

I agree and was trying to type out the example of the npc must be awar of how many are "in combat" but became busy at work.

I do find it ironic as the reason behind the skill is to get less people to attack and engage it. If my team members are dead or confined that would have the opposite reaction for me. The best would be fear, terror, shun and massive. One's that say (or do), "back away".
 
I really thought the voice radius damage effect that was used in SoMN was very effective without overly punishing low-power characters. It wasn't a takeout effect, so it didn't leave them feeling useless for lack of Cloaks or Banes, and being that it went straight to Body due to the carrier it was difficult for even powerful characters to just soak up and keep swinging.

In short, it was a good example of how care in usage by plot staff (Dave, in this case, as he was playing the creature in question) can make sure the effect does not get overwhelming.
 
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