[0.9]Releasing New Skills (with a side of Teacher)
- Thread starter Avaran
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Baron
On the one hand I think it would be a fun and interesting quest for a character to seek a Teacher for a Paragon Path.
On the other hand, there are a lot of Paragon Paths, so finding a Teacher may not be an option for some of them.
For implementation, I agree with Adam that Paragon Paths should be open to PCs to Spirit Forge into at the time of their deployment.
Edit to add: In my opinion, other skills such as Improved Meditate, Resolute, Intercept, Improved Slay, etc. should all be available to characters to Spirit Forge into at implementation, then allow whatever Teaching mechanic to take over.
Edit to add: There is also the question of will additional Paragon Path levels require additional Teaching as if they are separate skills? Or will follow-on levels be purchased without additional Teaching similar to Craft skills, Profs, and Spell Slots?
On the other hand, there are a lot of Paragon Paths, so finding a Teacher may not be an option for some of them.
For implementation, I agree with Adam that Paragon Paths should be open to PCs to Spirit Forge into at the time of their deployment.
Edit to add: In my opinion, other skills such as Improved Meditate, Resolute, Intercept, Improved Slay, etc. should all be available to characters to Spirit Forge into at implementation, then allow whatever Teaching mechanic to take over.
Edit to add: There is also the question of will additional Paragon Path levels require additional Teaching as if they are separate skills? Or will follow-on levels be purchased without additional Teaching similar to Craft skills, Profs, and Spell Slots?
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mikestrauss
Squire
This idea seems to me to be the very definition of favoritism in action. A player gains something, effectively for free, that other players may need to struggle to get access to. And worst of all, in terms of customer service, part of why they get the benefit is because of their OOG actions. The result of this is that there are now two different "paywalls" for a paragon path. One is controlled by plot and the other is controlled by a player that was handpicked by plot.
In the majority of cases, all this really does is reward the players who are extroverts and (usually) are financially well off. Those are basically the last people who need extra rewards from plot.
If you really want to give automatic access to some players and not others (something which I think is a terrible customer service decision), why shouldn't that access go to whatever character best exemplifies the paragon path, regardless of IG/OOG leadership? There is a paragon path called Assassin, for User's sake. That pretty much seems like it is destined for someone who is reasonably introverted. Similarly, it wouldn't be surprising if the first Ritualist was someone who basically stayed holed up in their cabin 95% of most weekends.
Giving free access to the outgoing person who doesn't personify the path as well as some other introverted person, pretty much just reeks of favoritism / old boy's network / etc.
-MS
In the majority of cases, all this really does is reward the players who are extroverts and (usually) are financially well off. Those are basically the last people who need extra rewards from plot.
If you really want to give automatic access to some players and not others (something which I think is a terrible customer service decision), why shouldn't that access go to whatever character best exemplifies the paragon path, regardless of IG/OOG leadership? There is a paragon path called Assassin, for User's sake. That pretty much seems like it is destined for someone who is reasonably introverted. Similarly, it wouldn't be surprising if the first Ritualist was someone who basically stayed holed up in their cabin 95% of most weekends.
Giving free access to the outgoing person who doesn't personify the path as well as some other introverted person, pretty much just reeks of favoritism / old boy's network / etc.
-MS
I am curious where the player experience benefits from forcing roleplay on people through mandatory functions? Players who want roleplay are always free to pursue it. There are no constraints in the system to prevent them from accessing it. If obstacles to build expenditure or skill progression were not in place, they would still have full ownership over creating their own roleplaying experience. This is unfortunately not true for people who exist on the other end of the spectrum. Hindering functions like this do not create innovative opportunities that aren't already available. They provide no unique benefit to the player experience that is not otherwise easily accessed without these functions. The "pros" of this function are already available, and can be easily engaged by players who value them, without burdening players who would endure a negative experience due to the unnecessary "cons".
Sage of Legaia
Rogue
(Writing on my phone, apologies in advance for major spelling mistakes.)
From a personal standpoint as someone who has no interest in any PP for my character as they are currently written, I feel like there's merit to having Plot teams control the initial release of PPs into the player base, and then allowing them to be taught as though they're any other skill on a card.
It's been discussed in the 'official' PP thread that some people feel like PPs are going to create a large power disparity between people who take them and people who don't, and just as much rebuttal that they encourage specialization and uniqueness between players that will level the field, so to speak, in certain situations; because of this, I feel that gating the initial release (and in effect requesting that high-level people 'bank' build they want to use on a PP) will help even out the power imbalance while Plot gets a better feel for how full events go in the chapter under the new rules and with all the Spirit Forges that are likely to take place. Dumping all the changes onto a Plot team and hoping they figure it out without people getting frustrated with them seems... Rather cruel, in my opinion.
By gating the first level or two of PPs behind NPCs for a few events seems like the best plan overall; PCs can request specific PPs, Plot can send out NPCs to teach them, and then balance around just a few PPs at a time (and hopefully send out some mods to make the PPs really shine while they work on getting the next ones out to PCs).
From a personal standpoint as someone who has no interest in any PP for my character as they are currently written, I feel like there's merit to having Plot teams control the initial release of PPs into the player base, and then allowing them to be taught as though they're any other skill on a card.
It's been discussed in the 'official' PP thread that some people feel like PPs are going to create a large power disparity between people who take them and people who don't, and just as much rebuttal that they encourage specialization and uniqueness between players that will level the field, so to speak, in certain situations; because of this, I feel that gating the initial release (and in effect requesting that high-level people 'bank' build they want to use on a PP) will help even out the power imbalance while Plot gets a better feel for how full events go in the chapter under the new rules and with all the Spirit Forges that are likely to take place. Dumping all the changes onto a Plot team and hoping they figure it out without people getting frustrated with them seems... Rather cruel, in my opinion.
By gating the first level or two of PPs behind NPCs for a few events seems like the best plan overall; PCs can request specific PPs, Plot can send out NPCs to teach them, and then balance around just a few PPs at a time (and hopefully send out some mods to make the PPs really shine while they work on getting the next ones out to PCs).
Muir
Fighter
This is the exact opposite of anything I ever want to see in our system.
It is not okay to make a single player the gatekeeper of other players' ability to spend build, for exactly the reasons Mike mentions above. Even if there is absolutely no favoritism going on, and I trust that for the vast majority of our games, there wouldn't be, there will absolutely be the appearance of favoritism and a strong chance of it generating a host of customer service issues.
Given the challenges that plot teams already face with executing content, adding a structure that requires plot to manage skill release and characters' access to build expenditures is deliberately placing itself at risk of encountering a significant number of points of failure. Plot resources are typically strained, and many plot teams encounter levels of turnover that must be managed and resources dedicated to onboarding new members. This, in addition to executing the content of the weekend, accommodating the natural unpredictability of players, providing accessibility for the players' diverse schedules and availabilities, and tracking the status of nearly two dozen Paragon Paths worth of progression, puts an unreasonable burden on plot teams. Failure to deliver here compromises the customer experience on a vast number of levels, as challenges cascade and further complicate matters. Even if this works for every plot team but one, that one failure is unacceptable and unnecessary, as it was an entirely avoidable situation from the beginning.
Paragon Paths should not need to be slowly introduced for balancing. If chapters are properly conducting playtests, and are provided adequate time to do so thoroughly and collect meaningful data, then the Paragons should be released as a balanced end product. If owners are taking serious, objective looks at the data, and making sound decisions based on player feedback, then no gatekeeping should be necessary. Gatekeeping these abilities demonstrates a failure of the playtesting process, which would be even more concerning given the potential systemwide collateral damage that such failings would suggest.
The risks to such structures are far too extensive. The rewards either already exist or do not require these structures to be accessed by those who value them. The foundations are concerning, and are symptomatic of greater system failure. The detriments are unnecessary, inevitable, and unjustified. These structures do nothing to uniquely enrich the customer experience, and only serve to burden and complicate the lives of both plot teams and players alike.
mythic
Baron
One of the things that you may want to do is talk with your Chapter Owner and Plot team. Ask them what their plans are (if any). Maybe help write up some interesting NPC stories that they can use and help ease their burden. There is a lot of time between now and 2.0 roll-out. Getting involved with your Chapter plot team is one way to help a smooth transition (if that is the route Chapters decide to go).
Calgary has been seeding 2.0 for 2 seasons now. We are in great shape for roll out story wise. Adding in a host of NPC teachers for Paragons (or lost tomes of knowledge) will not be an issue for us. But we have had a very dedicated plot team moving us towards 2.0 whenever it rolls out. We will not limit any PC that wants to pursue a PP. They may have to quest for it, but that can even start now if they wish. If the PP do not roll out in 2.0, then their quest fails to find the knowledge. It can be done. Talk to your teams and ask what you can do to help.
Calgary has been seeding 2.0 for 2 seasons now. We are in great shape for roll out story wise. Adding in a host of NPC teachers for Paragons (or lost tomes of knowledge) will not be an issue for us. But we have had a very dedicated plot team moving us towards 2.0 whenever it rolls out. We will not limit any PC that wants to pursue a PP. They may have to quest for it, but that can even start now if they wish. If the PP do not roll out in 2.0, then their quest fails to find the knowledge. It can be done. Talk to your teams and ask what you can do to help.
Draven
Count
No.
mikestrauss
Squire
Gating of any sort also really harms those who can't make many games a year (whether due to job or finances or distance or whatever). Honestly, I'm not concerned that the "always PCs every game (possibly for multiple chapters)" players will get access. Of course they will. It is the other players that I feel the need to look out for. The poor college students that only can afford to PC one game a year or the parents of small children who can rarely find weekend babysitters. For various reasons they can easily have characters high enough level to qualify for a PP, but gating of any sort practically ensures that they won't get access (and yes, I know plot teams will run special plots for them, but when resources are low, I know from experience that those are the parts of the weekend that are cut first).
-MS
-MS
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With a full rewrite this wont be an issue. All skills will be available to all players. The "gatekeeper" is the prerequisites and available build.
A wet rewrite is required since the exorbitant increase in profs I would be at negative build and I'm sure a heck of a lot of people will be as well, which is against the rules.
A wet rewrite is required since the exorbitant increase in profs I would be at negative build and I'm sure a heck of a lot of people will be as well, which is against the rules.