Armor

T

Templarmkiii

Newbie
First off, let me say that I can appreciate a few ideas with the armor changes:

1) Higher potential armor value is a great thing to me. Armor is encumbering and I want to have a better reason to wear it. I was disheartened my first few events to see the difference between power that actual armor provided versus arcane forms.

2) Fake armor now being awarded armor value is also cool. Real armor is expensive and, again, encumbering. I think this is part of the reason for the arcane armor issue mentioned in the playtest. At the very least, it offers a cheap alternative that is less encumbering.

However, I do see potential problems:

You're effectively punishing real armor again and simply shifting the prevalence of arcane armor to a prevalence of foam/cosplay armor by enabling it to get near full armor value.

Having a flat bonus of +1 for "real" materials, regardless of what category, is a bit weak. The difference between foam "leather" armor and real leather armor is 100%. The difference between foam "plate" armor and real plate armor is 25%. Couple this with the fact that the only differences between the 1 point foam "leather" armor and 4 point foam "plate" armor is how it is styled/painted, as well as the fact that the differences in encumbrance of foam to leather versus foam to steel, and it makes even less sense to me.

I understand a need to make armor more accessible to people, but at the same time I also feel a need to reward the real thing more appropriately, as well. Being a heavy immobile tank should have benefit.

As such, my proposal would be to either make the "real material" potential bonus 100% across the board, or limit the fake versions more.

Having fake versions be weaker would still encourage them, because armor for basically no real life cost or loss of mobility is still better than not having it, while rewarding someone who wears the real thing and puts up with all the discomfort associated.
 
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I'm in agreement. I do love me my arcane armor and not wearing actual armor because it lets me keep my costuming price low and makes me far more mobile. But for those who want to be that armored up person? Give them some incentive for dropping $$$$$ on a game to look good, help with immersion and be the armored badass they clearly want to be.

1- Maybe give set bonuses for wearing more and more pieces of real material? Like a free use of a skill or two? Wearing that full plate, sounds like you should be Resolute once or twice. All that roguey leather seems a bit Evade-y to me.
2- Maybe give double armor points for wearing the real material? Oh sweet, you got actual studded leather up and down. get that double point bonus. Check out this actual steel plate, double points for you!

The +1 point for real material seemed like a snazzy choice, but it's looking a little lackluster. That's what I'm thinking anyway.
 
Templarmkiii said:
First off, let me say that I can appreciate a few ideas with the armor changes:

1) Higher potential armor value is a great thing to me. Armor is encumbering and I want to have a better reason to wear it. I was disheartened my first few events to see the difference between power that actual armor provided versus arcane forms.

2) Fake armor now being awarded armor value is also cool. Real armor is expensive and, again, encumbering. I think this is part of the reason for the arcane armor issue mentioned in the playtest. At the very least, it offers a cheap alternative that is less encumbering.

However, I do see potential problems:

You're effectively punishing real armor again and simply shifting the prevalence of arcane armor to a prevalence of foam/cosplay armor by enabling it to get near full armor value.

Having a flat bonus of +1 for "real" materials, regardless of what category, is a bit weak. The difference between foam "leather" armor and real leather armor is 100%. The difference between foam "plate" armor and real plate armor is 25%. Couple this with the fact that the only differences between the 1 point foam "leather" armor and 4 point foam "plate" armor is how it is styled/painted, as well as the fact that the differences in encumbrance of foam to leather versus foam to steel, and it makes even less sense to me.

I understand a need to make armor more accessible to people, but at the same time I also feel a need to reward the real thing more appropriately, as well. Being a heavy immobile tank should have benefit.

As such, my proposal would be to either make the "real material" potential bonus 100% across the board, or limit the fake versions more.

Having fake versions be weaker would still encourage them, because armor for basically no real life cost or loss of mobility is still better than not having it, while rewarding someone who wears the real thing and puts up with all the discomfort associated.
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I'm not going to lie. I hate any and all rules that provide bonuses for wearing real armor. Yeah, real armor looks cool. But it's a paywall and a physical wall for some players who simply don't have the ability to do it, either for cost or physical capability's sake. The bonus for real materials annoys me as is, but I can live with it, but only because players have other options that help bridge the gap more.

Being a heavy immobile tank shouldn't get you anything more than wielding an unnecessarily heavy weapon, or using standard packets over bullet packets.
 
Personally, I see the +1 as a reasonable increase given the opportunity to layer armor now. It gives incentive to wear real armor while not being completely over the top (double value for real leather make it better equal to faux plate, for instance).

Additionally, doubling the value could result in even more bloat, which this rules version is attempting to avoid. Currently, a plate cuirass made from real metal would be 27 armor points (4 points per location for material, doubled for abdomen, chest, back, then +1 per location due to real material is effectively 9 points per location). Assuming you keep the current formula, but change the +1 to be +100% material that 27 would go to 36. And keep in mind there will be rituals that will allow armor to temporarily be doubled.

Assuming current method of calculation, but +100% instead of just +1, the following would be the result (does not include in-genre or mastercraft since those are flat values):
Faux / Current Real / Proposed Real
Full Plate Suit: 48 / 56 / 80
Full Chain Suit: 36 / 44 / 60
Full Thick Leather: 24 / 32 / 40
Full Leather: 12 / 20 / 20

Another friend used to harp on latex weapons vs. ultra-light boffer weapons, stating that all the reasons being used for giving real armor a bonus (heavier, looks nicer, more expensive, etc.) should be used to give latex weapons a bonus as well. He was using this actually as an argument on why there shouldn't be a mechanical difference between faux and real armor.
 
Alavatar said:
Another friend used to harp on latex weapons vs. ultra-light boffer weapons, stating that all the reasons being used for giving real armor a bonus (heavier, looks nicer, more expensive, etc.) should be used to give latex weapons a bonus as well. He was using this actually as an argument on why there shouldn't be a mechanical difference between faux and real armor.
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I remember making this argument....but I don't remember if I was the only one or not. >.>
 
I agree that the doubling option would add a lot of bloat to armor point values, which is why I personally prefer the method of reducing faux values.

As for the latex vs boffer thing, it's not quite the same. An equivalent argument would be the use of real swords versus foam boffers. That can't happen for obvious reasons. Also, I didn't make any mention of looks or cost for a reason. While this game is fairly pay-to-win, it's not so much the cost of the armor that I find reason for giving more points, nor the looks. I've seen plenty of fake armor that looks way more amazing than any real armor. I'm sure if you had it made versus made it yourself, the cost would be similar, too. Latex weapons are also not really much heavier than their ultralight counter-parts, and the drumroll rule basically negates any bonus that extra ounce of lightness might add.

The argument here strictly revolves around the weight and armor class (plate, chain, etc) aspect. It's obviously a personal preference of mine, as opposed to Draven. I come from amtgard where skill trumps all and it's more about being the best versus just time in the game and buying power. Amtgard rates armor based on material type (like the current rules of alliance), and I find that to make more sense.

Also, note that I don't have a stake in the game. If foam armor becomes the most powerful option due to the reasons stated, I'll just make foam armor. I'm simply sharing that I think punishing real armor is a bit backwards.
 
I'm not going to say I have the best end-all-be-all ideas. But it was something that popped into my head and I want to thank you all for your points and discussion of it. That's all that's come into my head so far so I'll lurk to see what other people think and maybe get inspired? I am a fan of rewarding those who want to go above and beyond into the realm of armor, but in a way that also doesn't punish people for not having it.
 
Alavatar said:
Additionally, doubling the value could result in even more bloat, which this rules version is attempting to avoid.
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This is completely untrue. Healing is bloating, Armor is bloating, Body points on H. Orc, H. Ogre, Barbarian (Oathsworn), Dwarves, and anyone who buys hearty is bloating. Damage is the only bloat being avoided (and burst damage is bloating actually).

That being said, I think a better increase to the armor rules isn't a bad thing. Its able to be depleted, destroyed, stolen. If we are going to increase values so much, why not armor as well?

Healing for a 4 column scholar currently in 1.3 gets 268 points of healing. 2.0 goes to 900. That's a 336% increase.

Armor goes from 40 max to 62. That's a 50% increase.

Body is variable based upon race, class and Hearty, so I don't have a good value for that. But H. Ogre Fighters get an additional 2 body every 5 levels. That coupled with Hearty every 2 levels spent in fighter levels brings that total to 8 every 5 levels or 32 body by 21st/22nd level. That is nearly a 75% increase?

Why not give something that Everyone has available (and more likely usable) a larger bump? Why not incentivize people spending more money on fancy real armor? We already do that by allowing people to purchase experience in other chapters to have an advantage. We already allow people to purchase goblin stamps to purchase rituals and magic and other in-game items with money. How is this any different?[/QUOTE]
 
Healing / Body (two sides of the same coin really) are only somewhat bloating. With the removal of daily magic items, I think healing will ultimately stay at about the same level as it currently is at.

Do I think magic items increase in-game healing by over 300%? No, though I suspect it is close to that number in some games. However, I don't believe the average earth caster is going to actually memorize nothing but healing. I think a few heal-focused casters will reach that 300% increase threshold, the average earth caster will increase memorized healing by a minimal amount (if any) and a handful will actually memorize less healing now that lower level spells can be memorized at higher levels. So, with my expectation that raw spell healing only increase by roughly 50 - 100% in most games (and body / armor probably increases by about 25 - 50% total), I think that roughly makes up for the removal of daily magic items (especially in combination with decreased damage values on monsters).

End result, in my opinion. The healing / damage balance doesn't really change meaningfully, but games benefit from lower damage numbers and lower monster body totals (while new PCs are more durable making the game a little more enjoyable for them).

-MS
 
More on topic, I think the +1 bonus is a solid balance between rewarding players that actually wear more constricting / heavier armor, while not overly rewarding players who simply have more disposable income.

-MS
 
Even if someone doesn't memorize all of their spells as healing, with Storm spells (which actually increases the bloat) and that 30 point healing drops two levels, Healing has increased significantly. Heck, 7th looks like a good spell slot as you get 5 more than now and its one lower.

Again, Im talking in extremes, because its going to the extreme to get full metal plate armor on all locations.

Also, again back to players with disposable income, we already overly reward them via goblin stamp purchases of ritual scrolls. How is increasing armor by another 18 points going to change that much?

What about +0 for real cloth (many costumes are cloth so.....), +1 for real leather, +2 for real chain/brig, +3 for real plate. That incentivizes real armor and actually gives plate a better increase than just 25%.
 
I don't buy the money aspect. A player that has more irl money can still buy more power via magical items, xp blankets, etc.

As for the armor value increasing based on armor class for real value, it's simply because I don't understand why the stronger armor types are disproportionately punished compared to the lighter armor. Why would I ever make "leather" foam armor when I can literally construct it the same way, paint it silver, and get 4x the point value? There's no harm in having armor rated way over your class's cap if there's no down side. Right now, you try to get armor to match your cap. In the future, it will be everyone running around in EVA plastidip 60 suits that are discounted to whatever their class max is because it's basically the same as wearing garb.
 
Templarmkiii said:
I don't buy the money aspect. A player that has more irl money can still buy more power via magical items, xp blankets, etc.

As for the armor value increasing based on armor class for real value, it's simply because I don't understand why the stronger armor types are disproportionately punished compared to the lighter armor. Why would I ever make "leather" foam armor when I can literally construct it the same way, paint it silver, and get 4x the point value? There's no harm in having armor rated way over your class's cap if there's no down side. Right now, you try to get armor to match your cap. In the future, it will be everyone running around in EVA plastidip 60 suits that are discounted to whatever their class max is because it's basically the same as wearing garb.
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What's your downside? The thing about cosplay-style armor is that, at its base, it is designed to look good.

We get better looking PC kit that fits the genre. Players get a few bonus points. Everyone walks away happy. The sole downside is if you are somehow psychologically attached to using real armor for the fakest of fighting systems.

Our combat is representative. It isn't a real fight, as evidenced by all the things we can't do to deal with someone wielding a large shield. With that in mind, there's no reason to demand real armor, because it is simply serving as costume rather than protective equipment.
 
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Muir said:
Our combat is representative. It isn't a real fight, as evidenced by all the things we can't do to deal with someone wielding a large shield.
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Please note that this response is not a post as the Playtest Community Manager, but exclusively my personal perspective as a long term fighter in Amtgard, Belegarth, Dagorhir and Alliance.

There are ample solutions within the scope of the currently written 1.3 ARB for a character to successfully engage in melee combat against a large shield. Wraps, fakes, baits and counter fighting are a few immediately relevant options. Furthermore, large shields typically hinder the offensive options of the wielder, and lend to a higher degree of shot predictability, providing an anticipatory advantage to the defending counter fighter.

Should you not have access to another player locally who can demonstrate these techniques, instructional videos are readily available online to help provide insight. Discounting the options for combating larger shields does not promote a learning culture within our community. It would be greatly appreciated if misconceptions regarding boardwork were not perpetuated in this fashion.
 
I will tell everyone right now, real steel armor looks WAAAAAAAY better than foam armor. Foam can look cool, but the real stuff just shines.
 
Tevas said:
Please note that this response is not a post as the Playtest Community Manager, but exclusively my personal perspective as a long term fighter in Amtgard, Belegarth, Dagorhir and Alliance.

There are ample solutions within the scope of the currently written 1.3 ARB for a character to successfully engage in melee combat against a large shield. Wraps, fakes, baits and counter fighting are a few immediately relevant options. Furthermore, large shields typically hinder the offensive options of the wielder, and lend to a higher degree of shot predictability, providing an anticipatory advantage to the defending counter fighter.

Should you not have access to another player locally who can demonstrate these techniques, instructional videos are readily available online to help provide insight. Discounting the options for combating larger shields does not promote a learning culture within our community. It would be greatly appreciated if misconceptions regarding boardwork were not perpetuated in this fashion.
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There are plenty of solutions for dealing with a large shield, although the expedient ones (a face thrust above it, or hooking it open with a weapon to stab the wielder) are not valid in our rulest. My point was not that shields are difficult to surmount, my point was that our combat has little to do with actual fighting. Even more so than the harder contact foam games, or the SCA (who are still playing a gamified version of tournament and training bouts, albeit at greater force than we are), Alliance combat is a game of touch tag with occasionally weaponish-looking things. If a 'sword' made of pool noodle over PVC pipe and covered in silver duct tape is a perfectly acceptable standard to hold weapons to, then trying to insist on some kind of purity as regards armor materials is absurd.

I would, for my own opinion, rather simply grant a standard level of armor based on character card disconnected entirely from the rep being worn than try to codify into the rules some greater in-game superiority for 'real' armor reps.

I think the rules as presented in the present playtest are perfectly fine in that respect. They provide a minor bonus to those willing to penalize themselves by wearing more cumbersome gear, while still making physical armor good enough compared to Arcane that people won't simply opt for the ritual by default.
 
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I beg to differ. I'd opt for foam armor/arcane armor at 80% of the benefit for 0% of the downsides every time. 60+lbs is a lot. Movement restriction is a lot. I doubt you'd see otherwise.

As for the standard level of armor based on character card disconnected from the rep, that's an idea. I wouldn't wear anything but a basic tunic and scrub pants at that point. Despite the rule against power gaming, people will always be as lazy and efficient as you let them with only a few exceptions in any case by die-hard proponents. If I felt like my real armor would be a liability to my power as a PC, there is 0 chance I'd wear it. I'm there to enjoy RP and be the biggest BA I can.

I can't provide reasoning for why alliance currently (in the live rules, not this play test version) chose to discern between materials, but I can absolutely provide the reason Amtgard does. The rules committee has dealt with similar proposals about making armor light and more fantastical. Their reasoning is always that the hindrance of armor is intended as a balancing mechanic. Amtgard's combat is slightly different in a few regards and they don't have nearly as many high HP NPCs, but I find the current live concept in alliance and the concept in amtgard more appealing than this rules revision due to that.

If we didn't care about realism at all, we wouldn't require you to actually hit the person with the weapon, we'd have verbals that are point+click successes, etc.
 
I think the thing you're missing in the difference between the games is that in Alliance, armor is essentially irrelevant past low level under the present system due to the magic system.

I hate to say that outright, but it's provably true. The mid to high level tank isn't worried about having armor, and in fact benefits greatly from not wearing heavy reps, because the real issue once past level 15-20 is mitigating one shot kills. Cloaks and dodges are the keys, with armor being relegated to just keeping the PC from taking the first carrier attack that clips them. Not wearing a heavy rep makes it that much more likely you can physically dodge a packet, which saves in-game resources.

Part of the changes to scaling that come with the new rules is reducing the number of one shot kill attacks on NPCs because of the reduction in the number of available defenses to them for PCs. Characters are no longer going to be able to be a fighter with a pocket full of a dozen smart defenses, but are also going to be more worried about mitigating straight damage than one-shots. This, along with the fact that Arcane Armor no longer provides Waylay protection and is capped a less than half of the maximum physical armor total, already makes physical armor much more desirable than under the current rules.

Further enhancing the bonus for wearing 'real' armor, as Mike Strauss noted above, is simply giving people who can afford to drop money another space to buy in-game advantage for out of game cash.
 
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