Damage scaling

Should weapon damage be scaled by build in fighter/rogue skills like wand damage is for scholars?

  • Yes, but I think there would need to be new skills introduced.

  • Yes, and the fighter/rogue skills should remain as written in .9.

  • No, I like the weapon proficiency as written in .9

  • No, I think that there is no problem with the damage rules in 1.3.

  • Indifferent.


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We have yet to hear if the class design paradigm for Alliance is Rock->Paper->Scissors, or Tank/DPS/Utility.

Also, the thread is on Damage Scaling; lets try to stay on topic. For ideas/discussion on something other than damages scaling, I suggest either starting a new thread or bringing it up as a topic on the fighter experiences thread.
 
I think the game doesn't need "Tanks" - unless it's specifically designed to have one - and this one isn't - that whole design space needs to absolutely be abandoned as a concept, imo. o_O Having things be too "tanky" is part of the whole (#*$*$()#($*($*@((#*$(#@(@_)()(#( problem.

If "tanks" are going to be a thing, then the whole class system needs to be trashed and built from the ground up with a whole new rules system that is actually built around that concept. This isn't a (@*($*$ )#(@)#(#*)(@@*#ERU#@*($# computer game.

We already have tanks. They just have stacks of dodges/cloaks/phases instead of sufficient body to take hits.

I still believe the damage scaling issue is more on 'crunchy NPCs statted with 200+ body', as implemented (in my personal opinion) because plot staff are occasionally blind to the concept that it is just as effective to add more pops as it is to add more durability to the monsters. More effective, in my opinion, because monsters without body bloat don't need layered protectives and can fall to PTD attacks just to pop again, thus leaving the players feeling their abilities had an effect without changing the overall effectiveness of the mod.

Half of the reason we're having this whole discussion on damage scaling is the bloat arms race that has matched it, and the other half is that it makes monsters statted with the expectation of high level characters showing up effectively invincible to newbies.
 
Keep in mind that some people play fighters that don't WANT all the per day stuff because they want to keep things easy and simple.
There are actually players out there who don't know all the verbals and all the rules. I don't understand them, but they're there :p
 
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Couldn't a better solution to the "defense bloat" be too just add more "lives" of the npcs (keep in mind that would add more packet attacks from the npcs as well so we might want to reduce that).
Think about the hordes of zombies. They don't get you with quickness and cunning. They get you thought attrition. So your disarm works now. The player is happy. After the 10th time that monster comes out, you might realise, "let me not throw any more stuff at it". My point is that the limited resources will run out. Making players work together along with knowing how to "scale back" their spells/abilities.
 
Again, I feel the conversation is straying from the OP topic of damage scaling ...

Perhaps, because the issue, at its core, has little to do with damage.
 
Perhaps, because the issue, at its core, has little to do with damage.

It both does and doesn't -- the again-and-again cited "problem" with 1.3 is that body/damage bloat is an issue. The result that we've seen is:
  1. Nerf the bejeezus out of melee/archery via Backstab and Weapon Proficiency costs.
  2. Introduce a skill that literally gives characters more body points.
  3. Increase the potential damage output of Celestial, when elemental weaknesses are taken into account.
  4. Sort-of decrease Celestial Wand Damage.
  5. Be incredibly resistant to the notion of Earth wand-equivalent.
The short version of this being a more-or-less status-quo or slight buff to Celestial (again), a crippling nerf to non-spell-casting builds, (arguable) further pigeon-holing of Earth casters to healing roles exclusively, and an outcome of takeout-effect-reliance for all classes, which further reduces the idea that the problem is damage output, but the availability of takeout effects.
 
(For clarity's sale, this is a response to @Saephis prior post)

Sure, but even body/damage bloat is not really the problem.

Damage became a problem because the other tools that fighters/rogues had in their arsenal (at the time slays/assassinates) were not as effective as just straight damage.

Part of it was because they had no other options, so they were given those other options, but they can't be purchased in a quantity that matters enough to be effective, unlike spells or alchemy, so more damage stayed the way to go.

So that causes body to escalate, because we don't want waves of monsters getting one-shotted by three guys and everyone else playing a support role because we don't have the endless supply of NPCs to field a swarm of 100 zombies all at once.

The other reason that damage has stayed on top for melee is because of the prevalence of defensive skills on monsters, but we need them because we don't want monsters getting one-shotted by packets or weapons so we pile on the defensives.

At its core, I'd say the cause of all of this is not only the amount of one-shot spells and alchemy out there, but the fact that even with all the defensive stuff that gets added on, it's still the best option for casters, except it's not because wands. Fighters are just avoiding the defensives by buying damage.

Make offensive skills matter and they become a better option than damage.

How? No clue.
 
I also think you touched on VERY important point - and that is that Packet Attacks (I include Spell Strikes (Channel) in this) from NPCs - regardless of what they are - should be counted and watched pretty carefully by Plot. Too many and Fights feel overwhelming - especially for people with few or no Magic Items - and too few, and the fight feels not very challenging. But Packet Attacks - and the number of them per wave, per encounter, per day - has a very high impact on things.

Yeah, this can also lead to NPCs zerging. Pop, run in, blow your packets/PTDs, die, pop again to do it again. Sometimes that's the card design, but it makes it very difficult to scale the encounter appropriately when everything lands in bursts.
 
Sure, but even body/damage bloat is not really the problem.
Definitely agree -- Its a red-herring of how to resolve current-game design, from what has tended to be found thus far.

Damage became a problem because the other tools that fighters/rogues had in their arsenal (at the time slays/assassinates) were not as effective as just straight damage.

Part of it was because they had no other options, so they were given those other options, but they can't be purchased in a quantity that matters enough to be effective, unlike spells or alchemy, so more damage stayed the way to go.

So that causes body to escalate, because we don't want waves of monsters getting one-shotted by three guys and everyone else playing a support role because we don't have the endless supply of NPCs to field a swarm of 100 zombies all at once.

The other reason that damage has stayed on top for melee is because of the prevalence of defensive skills on monsters, but we need them because we don't want monsters getting one-shotted by packets or weapons so we pile on the defensives.

At its core, I'd say the cause of all of this is not only the amount of one-shot spells and alchemy out there, but the fact that even with all the defensive stuff that gets added on, it's still the best option for casters, except it's not because wands. Fighters are just avoiding the defensives by buying damage.

Make offensive skills matter and they become a better option than damage.

I ... mostly agree, to a point. I think that the climate of class-dynamics have polarized towards "Casters get everything, except physical damage and body." Defensives? Magic can solve it all. Be it ritual effects or column-spells

The climate is largely that the Celestial Scholar (or Templar, to a lesser degree) remains the unrivaled Master-Class in current 1.3. Wands, Golems, a Spell Tree, ability to produce magic items, with the only downside being body -- only if they aren't in a golem. Spell stores allow quickened casting of high-volume, low level spells (See the Disarm discussion). Meanwhile, other classes are too prone to everything that the Celestial Scholar can dish out.

The simplest solution, in my mind, is in the magic item revisions -- rituals locked to certain classes or abilities, separation of certain rituals to trade/craft skills, and (Don't get your pitchforks too quickly) per-day items *only* available to people who can use the ability themselves.

For this thread in specific, for the sake of system-universal-writing, moving Backstab and Weapon Proficiency to be byproducts of your class skills makes a ton of sense to me. Yes, that means introducing more skills -- and that's fine -- for the sake of class balance. Spells going to the wayside that replicate Class Skills of Fighters, Rogues, and the hybrids allows this, in addition to those new skills. And that does mean, specifically, spells like Disarm and Magic Armor -- both of these make the Fighter/Rogue builds worthwhile, and their skills worthwhile. If a Scholar is supposed to be a delicate flower, don't make them some bizarre stone flower with mile-thick walls.

If the desire is to keep ritual effects like Spell Parry as either rituals or something specifically not a skill, then reduce take-out effects. Change 10 minute counters down, reduce or eliminate Line of Sight abilities -- these truly water down experiences as players sit around waiting for these timers to expire or NPCs just give up, knowing they have additional spawns later.

Anyways, yes, quite. I'm still in favor of static-damage scaling with class abilities purchased *in all fields*, not just Celestial.
 
I ... mostly agree, to a point.

Well, crap. That took a while, but I'm glad we got there.

Anyways, yes, quite. I'm still in favor of static-damage scaling with class abilities purchased *in all fields*, not just Celestial.

So, new thread and let's do that?
 
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