Fighters then and now

Deadlands of Old

Deadlands of Old

Baron
It seems in NH and CT we've had a long standing issue of having very few mid to high level fighters. I’m pretty sure our highest level folks are almost never fighters.

I'm curious if the rest of the Alliance has the same dearth of fighters (I suspect the low level ones tend to fluid class over).

I'm concerned that we're going to have even more trouble getting people to play fighters with the new rules, which is problematic as far as game balance. The new tricks for fighters don't seem as powerful and/or as abundant as that which is available to spell casters. I suspect that with the new rules this will become a very spell caster-centric game.

Anyone else have similar concerns and if so perhaps thoughts on how to address it?

(My apologies if this was addresses in a previous thread. I’ve read through to see if this was thoroughly covered but I’m showing up a little late to the conversation.)
 
The Pac NW is extremely caster-heavy.

Personally, I think it's more a reflection of people enjoying magical/social RP over being a stick-jock.
 
I think we will see fewer high level fighters (and rogues). Just so we're all on the same page, are we talking level 30+ or what did you have in mind?

I think the new rules encourage high level players to go scholar or templar. I tried building a few (I posted one on Matt's character thread), but building level 30+ fighters with the new rules is pretty complicated. I think playing one would be complicated too - since you are buying expendable skills instead of profs there is a lot to keep track of.

If you don't mind expanding the thread a bit, I think the high level rogue shortage is more obvious than the fighter shortage. I think rogues are even tougher to build with the new rules.

So yes, I expect to see a lot of templars and scholars. Scouts too probably as they allow for some of the same character concepts as fighter and rogue (but building a scout seems easier than building a fighter or rogue).

Plot teams can help by bringing out monsters with few parries (and few dodge, phase, etc.) so that fighters can land their slays. Funny, cause I remember not too long ago casters were crying about resist magic. Now fighters are the more limited damage class so they will be crying when their skills don't go through.
 
Personally, from what I've read in the playtest rules, I am more excited than ever to play my Scout. I can actually get my Dodges and Evades quicker than I could before, which was always a high priority for my character. And, depending on the answer to my Stun Limb question, I may be really excited soon.

-MS
 
The Canada chapter is predominantly Fighters and Rogues. But then again spell casters in our chapter are subject to a lot of scrutiny and regulations from how the chapter is built so that might have something to do with it.
 
We have a really heavy fighter/rogue presence in our game, and I don't anticipate that changing. So far everyone in our chapter who has playtested the new fighter/rogue rules seems to have broadly enjoyed them, and feedback was almost entirely positive.
 
ASFDan said:
We have a really heavy fighter/rogue presence in our game, and I don't anticipate that changing. So far everyone in our chapter who has playtested the new fighter/rogue rules seems to have broadly enjoyed them, and feedback was almost entirely positive.
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Might I ask what's your APL? Typically?
 
It was 16ish a couple of years ago with two major populations clustered in the vicinity of 10 and 30, but since I passed ownership a while back I've not been on staff so I don't know how far up from there it's shifted.
 
I'm trying to understand, you know about the almost entirely positive feedback but not the APL?
 
ASFDan said:
It was 16ish a couple of years ago with two major populations clustered in the vicinity of 10 and 30, but since I passed ownership a while back I've not been on staff so I don't know how far up from there it's shifted.
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Ok. That sounds about in line with what I've been seeing. We seem to have fighters in the teens still. That appears to drop off into the 20s and 30 plus levels. That seems to be when for a lot of people it stops being worth it, for whatever reason. I'm wondering if that will be alleviated or made worse by the new rules. Right now I suspect we'll probably see fewer fighters.

I like the suggestion that we try to be really careful about sending out any kind of defences for weapon attacks on NPCs.Right now they're still pretty numerous, which is one of the reasons I think people generally refrain from tricks over high repetitive damage. I totally understand why we have to send out the stats we do though, because there are so many Ptd shutdowns in the game, which does not make for a fun fight if they land too quickly. I just don't know if generating more shutdowns solves the problem.
 
Based on playtesting I don't think that will be the case. New fighters are fun as hell. Very, very different, but also really fun. I realize that might not be everyones' experience, but it's a common thread from those I know who have tried it.

That said, the success of the new system is predicated on two critical factors:

(a) Players embrace the new system and don't try to shoehorn their previous experiences into what this new system delivers. There will have to be a serious adjustment in how we approach character building, and it's incumbent on not only the owners and ARC but also those of us who are getting experience with the new system through playtesting to help teach and encourage those who have not.

(b) Plot teams also need to embrace the new system. If you send out enemies as they exist now it will be a bloodbath. Damage is going to be a lot less predictable and more streaky, but lower overall. Magic items are getting heavily restricted in their use. Defenses are getting much more class-specialized. The monster database in its current form, as well as our current practices for creating new monsters, are wholly inadequate for this and it's going to take a lot of work to prepare for the change.
 
ASFDan said:
Based on playtesting I don't think that will be the case. New fighters are fun as hell. Very, very different, but also really fun. I realize that might not be everyones' experience, but it's a common thread from those I know who have tried it.

That said, the success of the new system is predicated on two critical factors:

(a) Players embrace the new system and don't try to shoehorn their previous experiences into what this new system delivers. There will have to be a serious adjustment in how we approach character building, and it's incumbent on not only the owners and ARC but also those of us who are getting experience with the new system through playtesting to help teach and encourage those who have not.

(b) Plot teams also need to embrace the new system. If you send out enemies as they exist now it will be a bloodbath. Damage is going to be a lot less predictable and more streaky, but lower overall. Magic items are getting heavily restricted in their use. Defenses are getting much more class-specialized. The monster database in its current form, as well as our current practices for creating new monsters, are wholly inadequate for this and it's going to take a lot of work to prepare for the change.
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Can you post some of the level 30 plus fighter builds people enjoyed during the playtests? I had trouble building them but could be I am stuck in old ways of thinking.
 
Gilwing said:
I'm trying to understand, you know about the almost entirely positive feedback but not the APL?
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Only a small percentage of the player base out here has been able to get to the playtesting, and we've been pretty communicative at wrap up for sessions. On the other side of things, Dan and I have mostly shelved our high level characters for a couple of kitchen cook characters, so we've lost a bead on the power levels in game at current.

Based on my knowledge from my time as logistics and build growth trends, I'd estimate the APL around 16, 16.5 ~ish.
 
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Gilwing said:
I'm trying to understand, you know about the almost entirely positive feedback but not the APL?
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Even though I'm not owner/staff anymore I have been heavily involved in the playtesting process because (a) a lot of these are rules I helped write and voted on and I have a vested interest in seeing the process through, and (b) as a long time player I have a significant interest in helping to build the best game possible for myself and my friends, and to understand it fully so that I can help teach it when the time comes to do so. Furthermore, as Sarah mentioned, part of our playtesting involves a pretty thorough post-game discussion session and debrief. We don't just play, go home, and fill out the feedback form.

On the other hand I don't know the exact APL because, as noted, it's been a while since I had a reason to know it. I know what it was, and I can safely assume that it has gone up slightly, but that's about it.
 
In traverse we have a lot of fighters. Not all big but as a rouge now I'm going straight fighter with the new rule changes. See some great potential with partnering up with scholars and healers. No more one man shows but I like that.
 
In traverse we have a lot of fighters. Not all big but as a rouge now I'm going straight fighter with the new rule changes. See some great potential with partnering up with scholars and healers. No more one man shows but I like that.
 
Sorry for the delay. Here are two fighters that were played at our last playtest, which was designed to be an entire logistics day worth of mods so that we had to manage our skills as we would in a live game. They were both approx lv 30, with access to a selection of new rituals. There are others (I think 4 total played fighters), but I only helped build two of them:

Fighter 1, which I played, was built around crit attacks and skills. The play style was focused on active skill management, using critical attacks to flexibly adapt to the encounter and scaling up damage when needed. This build benefits from fighting next to a celestial caster, and a scaled down version would pair nicely as the fighter half of a celestial templar:
OHE
Shield
Weapon Prof x2
Crit attack x50
Slay x5
Imp. Slay x3
Parry x6
Wear Extra Armor (30? I forget exact but it was enough to wear the new practical maximum)
Disarm x8
Shatter x4
Blacksmith x1

Fighter 2, which I built for someone else, was a more traditional prof-based build, designed to be an effective archer. It was a much less flexible build than Fighter 1, but was able to deliver reliable damage without having to worry about managing crit attacks. There's no specific pairing that benefits this build more than any other, but it is solid with a group. I also think this build would do well scaled down as one half of an earth templar.
Archery
OHE
Style Master
Weapon Prof x6
Crit attack x20
Slay x5
Imp. Slay x5
Parry x6
Eviscerate x2
Riposte x2
Hearty x10

I do know that someone made a fighter build that used blacksmith levels for skill prerequisites, with a small number of profs/crits to supplement. I didn't see enough of the build to recreate it here, but the player did seem excited about the implications for their blacksmith character.
 
I'm really surprised that the archer build doesn't have Shatters. I know that shields are one of the biggest problems I have as an archer and the only reason I don't have Shatter now is because it is almost impossible to hit with against a shield user. With the new Shatter rules, I would break the shield and then proceed to tear through the body points of my target.

-MS
 
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