Follow up to my poll: Level Gap

Daimyo Shi

Newbie
Most people in my poll want Balance between new players and old player, with the vast minorty favouring new players. Now in my review of topics that didn't seem to be what most of the arguements about aspects of 2.0 seem to bear out but let's put that aside for another topic/day.

How do we balance 2.0 over the very wide gulf that exists in Alliance at this point? I am at a lost at how big the biggest level currently is in Alliance I am under the impression it is very large almost MMO Level cap number [IE between 50 and 100] it would seem to be the desire balance but how can we frame that around the changes of 2.0. is the problem with 2.0 overall that it favours one side over the other? Or is it something else?
 
Frankly, I don't think it's mechanically possible. The gap was a problem when I started playing back in 2004 at an APL 20+ Kzoo, and hasn't really changed in that time beyond the top end getting higher. It's why many new chapters run under level caps.

My ideal goal would be to find ways to help the people with massively high level characters wrap up those characters' stories and move on to a new PC, but that's difficult to do. People have a ton of time, money, and emotion invested in those characters and aren't really going to want to give them up. At the same time, the game can't continue to exist unless we can get new players and convert those newbies into regulars, because some older players are inevitably going to find other hobbies or just be too busy to invest themselves in the game any more. That's a lot less likely if those new players are stuck in a permanent situation of haves vs have nots.
 
The issue is less that there's a gap and more that there isn't a cap, IMO. However, the primary source of these power gaps is magic item accumulation. The MI reductions in .9 address that significantly, and should help with scaling.

I'm one of the folks who feels there should be a level cap (around 25 - 30th level, IMO), but I'm one of the few.
 
I don't view the high / low gap as a large issue, myself. When I started playing, I looked at high level characters as goals to aspire towards, and have been told the same is the case now. Taking that away, and having the playerbase be largely one lump of "Well, I guess we're all the same" would take away a large piece of Alliance's flavor.
 
I've been playing for a year, and have definitely struggled with the gap. While my character definitely aspires to become stronger, that motivation isn't fun enough to overcome the not-fun that happens when I repeatedly have effectively zero impact on a module.

I voted for "balanced" on the prior poll because from a game design standpoint I believe the fun of all players should be equally valued, not because I think the level gap isn't a problem.
 
I don't view the high / low gap as a large issue, myself. When I started playing, I looked at high level characters as goals to aspire towards, and have been told the same is the case now. Taking that away, and having the playerbase be largely one lump of "Well, I guess we're all the same" would take away a large piece of Alliance's flavor.

Quoted for emphasis.

I am at a lost at how big the biggest level currently is in Alliance I am under the impression it is very large

I don't think there's anything you can really do about the level gap. It simply is what it is and it's up to Plot teams and Players to make New Players feel welcome and useful.

To give you an idea of the level gap, and to illustrate my point about the importance of the Community as a whole: When I was Head of Plot for Alliance Oregon (2011-2015), in many of our events we would have both Level 1 and Level 2 characters at the low end, and at the high end we had a character that was above level 50, a few that were above level 40, and everything else in between. My plot team and I purposefully created content for 3 basic level ranges: Low (levels 1-10), Mid (20-25), and High (Level 35 and higher). You'll note that there are some levels missing in between those ranges, but those levels could easily go up or down depending on player experience, magic item ownership, and player skill.

We also had content every single weekend event for players of all ranges to participate in, this took the form of the Weekend Plot, so that visitors, new players, and players who hadn't been to the chapter in a while could jump right into relevant and important plot/story without having to know what was going on in the overarching story. I got The Weekend Story idea and its purpose from the Head of Plot I worked under from 2010-2011, @jpariury . It was extra work for the team, a lot of extra work in some cases, but ultimately I felt it was an important thing to continue to make the game as accessible to as many players as possible. It has the added benefit of getting NPC's involved too! NPC's really like knowing what is going on and being involved with the story, and when they know the Weekend Story and they know they have an impact on it and can help tell that story, they are more likely to have fun and more likely to come back and NPC again.

Additionally, how effective a Character is, how effective a Player feels, is utterly and entirely up to the Plot team and how an event, module, town fight, or encounter is scaled. All the rules in the world won't make up for bad scaling. And you can have as many rules and regulations as you want to attempt to help new players get involved, but those rules are useless if your Plot and Chapter Community (players and NPC's) aren't also there to do their part.
 
As someone who travels with @Saephis and @Avaran (like twice, it sort of counts :| ), at less than half of their level, I agree with their statements on this.
VV would be shocked and devastated if her friends above level 30 suddenly disappeared (not necessarily you, I have other friends, what), and I would at least feel bad if they were suddenly cut down, ostensibly on my behalf. I love hearing stories of PCs who have crept into incredible power, and watching the high-level PCs finally unleash on the things that are meant for them is a sadistic joy.
I think it adds a lot to the world that there are both old and young soldiers, and I think the game would be a lot poorer, shallower and more boring without the decades of stories they have.
To @Avaran's point, yeah. Careful scaling can make sure there's something for everyone, and generally in our chapter there is something for every power level, and every power level is taken into account. It's basically a problem for plot teams to deal with, that they absolutely have the tools and should have the capability to deal with.
 
So is 2.0 balance, or is leaning to one side or ther other, I ask this because some people making arguements around 2.0 Changes dealing with rather extream leveled characters and what people can do with a lets say level 50 character. I personally have to wonder if there enough 50 level characters around for that to matter but maybe there is. I know I play in one of the younger chapters.
 
So is 2.0 balance, or is leaning to one side or ther other

A very good question!

In short, there is no real answer yet. Answers currently would entirely be a matter of opinion mostly based on varying degrees of experience, player perspective, and to a smaller extent, actual beta-version play testing. Finding the answer to this question is often an underlying topic of many [0.9] threads.

The overall purpose of having a Play Test is to, in part, find an answer to this question based on actual play rather than theory/discussion.
 
've been playing for a year, and have definitely struggled with the gap. While my character definitely aspires to become stronger, that motivation isn't fun enough to overcome the not-fun that happens when I repeatedly have effectively zero impact on a module.

That sounds more like a scaling problem to me. Why do fights always have to scale to high level players. As a high level character I don't expect or even want to have a challenge every fight.

I see exactly what you are taking about though and have been on both ends of it. Watching newer players attack things during a wave battle only to be told they don't effect it is no fun for them, I can see the disappointment especially if it happens often. I'm personally pretty laid back when I see the weaker wave battles/npcs I understand the need for them to entertain others. Not all high level players would do that but there are ways to fix that too :) . I typically get challended when my higher level team goes on modules, which makes most sense.

FWIW: if there was a level cap I would have been bored years ago and no doubt not be playing anymore.
 
I guess I see the level gap and scaling problems as the same thing. If the system didn't create such a pronounced difference in power between high and low level characters, it wouldn't be so tricky for plot teams to scale appropriately.

My understanding is that one of the design goals in 2.0 is to reduce the effect of that level gap, which I think is great!
 
I guess I see the level gap and scaling problems as the same thing. If the system didn't create such a pronounced difference in power between high and low level characters, it wouldn't be so tricky for plot teams to scale appropriately.

Speaking from experience, it isn't the level gap that makes it hard to scale well. It is Magic Items giving characters access to skills and abilities that they otherwise wouldn't have, in particular, Fighters. Without Magic Items, it's actually quite easy to scale, imo, as long as you have a clear plan/idea of the challenge you want to present to your PC's.
 
My favorite thing since I started just over a year ago has been "reverse threshold". Not sure if it's an LCO thing... But it has been great for newer players. Hell, the town battle in the last event? The boss had reverse threshold, so it was the newbies taking down the big bad, with the higher people taking on the random mobs
 
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As a mid level (25) who adventures with high levels (30-45), I have at times felt I was not as effective as them. This has very little to do with level, and far more to do with the number of magic items they have amassed, compared to me. More defenses to allow them to drive deeper into the enemy lines, burst damage to quickly drop a foe, or just wand damage many fold higher than I could deal with my sword.

Hell, I have seen 10th level characters of the same class who had gobbied a bunch of magic items that have made then far more effective then me.

0.8 fixed most of these issues with the major nerf of magic items, that made your class important again. Without magic items that can make a fighter also a caster, or a caster also into a fighter, suddenly you need companions, because you cant just wade into the enemy anymore without their assistance. When you cant heal yourself, or put protectives on yourself, or cant drop an opponent with an eviscerate or terminate because of your class not your level or magic items, suddenly teamwork is not only encouraged, it is essential

The problem with 0.9 is the introduction of Paragons. While the idea sounds fun, I mean who does not want cool new powers, paragon powers just replace magic items in making balance that much more difficult for plot to manage, especially with the introduction of powers that only monsters had before.

The goal of 2.0 should be to simplify and streamline the game not so you can add new things that replace what you are removing.

While I will miss the cool powers of magic items in 1.3, I am excited to have my class matter again.

Sorry got into a rant there. Back to level gap, and how it will matter little after magic items are nerfed. just look at these comparisons of similar build cost.

Cure mort. 1/day on a fighter (8th earth) which for a fighter is 12 build or about a level, and that does not include prereq

Life 1/day on a fighter (9th earth) which for a fighter is 15 build or about 2 levels, and that does not include prereq

Cloak or 1/day on a fighter (1 formal) which for a fighter is 12 build or about a level, and that does not include prereq. Bane would be twice this.

Damage Aura +3 - For a fighter 45 build or 5 levels, for a Scholar 120 build or about 12 levels.

Race reaver or Monster Slayer at +8 for a scholar is roughly equal to (weapon proficiency x8 + prereq crit attacks) which for a scholar is 320 build or 32 levels. Yes it only effects one type of creature, so lets divide it by the total number of races or monsters you can choose to have it against about 15. Now it is 21 build or about 2 levels per monster or race.

When you look at magic items, most of the decent effects add about a level or 2 for every one. That is what causes the majority of your level gap.
 
I'd like to point out that the difference between a level 30 Earth Scholar and a level 15 Earth Scholar is roughly a minimal amount of body, and -maybe- a few High Magic tricks, in the space of a single encounter. As we don't have any scaling advantages (Profs/BS/Wands), the only thing that separates us is our depth of Spell slots, meaning we can last more fights, not necessarily be better in one.

You might be able to go a bit bigger? But that just means you're running out of spells that much faster.
 
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