Line of sight

[Slice]

Not to long ago I came out of a conversation with a few people that confused my present understanding of "line of sight" when refering to the ability to use skills successfully and there duration. So here are a few scenarios that I was curious how they would be ruled on.

You are in your cabin, there is only one window in which you are visible from and it is on the backside of a cabin. A gypsy approaches the front of your cabin knows you're in there and gypsy curses you. He cannot see you, but would be capable of seeing you if he moved. Does the curse take affect?

Secondly you are chasing someone out in the forest. The forest is decently dense( the one in the middle of sight) and you loose track of the person you are chasing. You know they are hiding out there somewhere so cleverly you loudly yell a gypsy curse meaning for them to take it, in which they must make very loud noises. Do they have to take it?

Lastly, similar to the first scenerio, you are in your cabin and the only point at which you are visible from outside the cabin is a small crack under the door. There is a person on the other side of the door that directs their gypsy curse at you. Would they have to look through the crack in order for the curse to be successful, or if their feet were aligned so if they had eyes they could see you, would that suffice?


Previously I was under the assumption that none of the gypsy curses should be successful, and that the "caster" must be capable of actually seeing their target. Has this changed?

Lastly hiding behind individual trees, behind mattresses and other similar objects does not count as blocking you from line of sight. At what size must a object be for it to count as a blocking device?

Thanks a bunch,
Holly

 

[Anonymous]

According to the Line of Sight rules, and it's my understanding that Seattle has ruled that Gypsy Curse follows Line of Sight rules, with a number of large exceptions which don't effect your questions directly, you're not going to take any of those curses. You must actually be able to see the person from where you're standing. You do not actually have to be looking at them, or know where you could be standing to see them. The only possible exception is the door with the crack, and if I were marshalling that particular situation, and if the crack were so large that I could legitimatly tell which person the curse was effecting by the soles of the feet I was looking at, I'd make them get on the ground and actually look through the crack to use the ability. Otherwise, you're boots don't have eyes, and so therefore you don't know if you have line of sight.

Finally, I've had matresses block line of sight. The last ruling I believe I heard was that if it's too big to be taken out by a Destroy, and it completely conceals every part of the person, and is not that person's possession, then it blocks line of sight.

~Matt,
Not a Seattle marshal

 

[meltedwing]

You must actually be able to see the person from where you're standing.

So in your opinion does darkness block line of sight?

Does heavy fog block line of sight?

Does blinding light block line of sight?


My understanding of the term "line of sight" is that if you can place an imaginary line between two people and it doesn't go through any solid objects then you have line of sight.

If I can see someone from very far away... and I put up a cricle of power and use a whispering wind, can I curse someone? Can I do the same thing if I am using a seer stone and can see them through it?

Essentially my opinion is that, if you limit line of sight rules to 'what you see' then there are many other things that come into play. Military line of sight definitions are much more clear on this topic. (which is generally where the term originated as far as I am aware)

Mark

 

[Balryn]

Well I'll give the line of sight definition from the book- page 60.

"Basically, if you can draw a straight line between the caster and the victim without the line being obscured by any obstacles, then the Line of Sight is still in effect."

I'm not a Marshal currently, but the "Line of Sight" term is a military (and now architectural) term. It is very basic. Draw a line between two points and you are good. Per the wording for the rules this point is not dependant on a specific part of either person and can be from any point on caster A to any point on target B.

You are in your cabin, there is only one window in which you are visible from and it is on the backside of a cabin. A gypsy approaches the front of your cabin knows you're in there and gypsy curses you. He cannot see you, but would be capable of seeing you if he moved. Does the curse take affect?
You wouldn't take it. To establish line of sight would require the caster to move, hence the current position "imaginary line" is obscured by the building.

Secondly you are chasing someone out in the forest. The forest is decently dense( the one in the middle of sight) and you loose track of the person you are chasing. You know they are hiding out there somewhere so cleverly you loudly yell a gypsy curse meaning for them to take it, in which they must make very loud noises. Do they have to take it?

Yes. Nothing in the "Line of Sight" rules says that you have to actually see the target, merely be "able" to see the target. However you would still have to identify the target in the curse according to the NERO Seatlte ruling. However if they are truly behind something large, like a big tree or a building the curse would be used with no effect on the target.

Lastly, similar to the first scenerio, you are in your cabin and the only point at which you are visible from outside the cabin is a small crack under the door. There is a person on the other side of the door that directs their gypsy curse at you. Would they have to look through the crack in order for the curse to be successful, or if their feet were aligned so if they had eyes they could see you, would that suffice?

Yes. If you can draw a straight line from my toe to your left pinky, then the line of sight is valid.

So in your opinion does darkness block line of sight?
Does heavy fog block line of sight?
Does blinding light block line of sight?

LOS is still effective. Darkness, heavy fog and blinding light are not an obstacle. Per the rules on page 60 you could still draw a straight line between the two.

 

[Sarah]

You are in your cabin, there is only one window in which you are visible from and it is on the backside of a cabin. A gypsy approaches the front of your cabin knows you're in there and gypsy curses you. He cannot see you, but would be capable of seeing you if he moved. Does the curse take affect?

No. Line of sight means you have to actually see the person, not know they're there. You might knwo someone just ran behind the tavern to drop your bind, but unless you chase them, you don't have line of sight.

Secondly you are chasing someone out in the forest. The forest is decently dense( the one in the middle of sight) and you loose track of the person you are chasing. You know they are hiding out there somewhere so cleverly you loudly yell a gypsy curse meaning for them to take it, in which they must make very loud noises. Do they have to take it?

Also, no. Again, you actually have to see the person.

Lastly, similar to the first scenerio, you are in your cabin and the only point at which you are visible from outside the cabin is a small crack under the door. There is a person on the other side of the door that directs their gypsy curse at you. Would they have to look through the crack in order for the curse to be successful, or if their feet were aligned so if they had eyes they could see you, would that suffice?

Strictly rules wise, they'd have to look through the crack. Spirit of the rules may differ on this so don't take that one as gospel.

Previously I was under the assumption that none of the gypsy curses should be successful, and that the "caster" must be capable of actually seeing their target. Has this changed?

No, in fact, this has been completely clarified so that line of sight must be maintained during the incanting.

Lastly hiding behind individual trees, behind mattresses and other similar objects does not count as blocking you from line of sight. At what size must a object be for it to count as a blocking device?

A VERY large tree counts as blocking line of sight (think three or more people to hug it) per the rule book. But so does a biffy. Which says to me that it's not a size isssue, but a spacial issue. You can move a matress. You can't move an old-growth tree.
Flowery answer is, the object should be immobile and large enough to block both your view of the caster and vice versa. If the caster can see your nose, they still see you.

~Sarah

 

[Anonymous]

LOS...the MILITARY version

Hi folks, long time no see.

In military parlance, "line of sight" means exactly what it says. You have a direct line of sight to a target, no more no less.

ANY obstruction is considered to have obscured that line of sight. This could be anything from a copse of trees to buildings, fog, cloud-cover, even tree branches can cause that line of sight to be lost. This would also include darkness (since you absolutely cannot see a target unless you or it has lights) rain, bright light (try watching a target over a desert. I have, and got retina damage from it, and couldn't keep sight of the target for more than a minute at a time for it)

In order for true LOS to be considered, you must have absolute sight of a target. By absolute, you are able to describe the setting it is in, approximate distance, speed, and direction of travel (if applicable). If any thing can obscure the target, you are considered to have lost LOS.

This is immutable. The military will not allow hedging, such as "if I can hear it through a wall" or "I can see it through a crack". These arguments are good for snipers, NOT for use for long range weapons, or, in this case, spells/alchemy.

...Example...

A tank behind a tall hill would not be able to see an enemy tank on the other side of the hill. Therefore, the first tank does not have a "line of sight" to the enemy tank. Conversely, a squad of soldiers atop the hill may be able to see both tanks, though the tanks may not be able to see them (since tank's upward line of sight is limited).

The tanks cannot see through the hill, just as we, the players, cannot see through walls.



To make this short, it's this:

You absolutely must be able to see your target. If its obstructed by *anthing*, be it fog, darkness, rain...*anything*..LOS is lost. Period.

Spoone (don't ask where I get my information, just consider I did military time using optical equipment to gather information...nuff said)

 

[Anonymous]

My understanding of the term "line of sight" is that if you can place an imaginary line between two people and it doesn't go through any solid objects then you have line of sight.


Essentially my opinion is that, if you limit line of sight rules to 'what you see' then there are many other things that come into play. Military line of sight definitions are much more clear on this topic. (which is generally where the term originated as far as I am aware)

Mark

Mark, this is essentially what my earlier post states. You are absolutely correct here. It's the imaginary line from hunter to target with it not passing through any obstruction which allows true LOS to be considered viable.

Spoone

 

[Balryn]

This is immutable. The military will not allow hedging, such as "if I can hear it through a wall" or "I can see it through a crack". These arguments are good for snipers, NOT for use for long range weapons, or, in this case, spells/alchemy.

To make this short, it's this:

You absolutely must be able to see your target. If its obstructed by *anthing*, be it fog, darkness, rain...*anything*..LOS is lost. Period.

I can't agree on these. I completely get the idea, but the reason a large tree counts in NERO and a small one (or a scattered bush) doesn't is because a large tree blocks the entire body and a small one does not. If the left quarter inch of your big toe is exposed then LOS is good.

Darkness, Fog, and RAIN do not count in NERO spefically because they are not obstacles. On top of that, how does one not take a darkness LOS? For the same reason fog and blinding light are not obstacles... some people see clearly through most darkness, rain, fog and blinding light.

Example- Balryn is standing in a room. Rupert is five feet in front of me. A minute earlier I hit him with a web and have spent the last minute berating him for his choice of clothing color. The lights go off. It's pitch black. Dave curses because he doesn't have any night vision, while Barry chuckels because he does. When Dave counts to five, does his web expire because he thinks LOS is broken?

If I can whip out a blowgun and tag ya with it, then there isn't an obstacle. If a cloak can't block line of sight in NERO, then darkness shouldn't either.

If you go with actual visual acquisition of a target based upon what you can actually see, you bring a whole slew of questions that don't adhere to what page 60 says about LOS.

Example-

a) I'm nearly blind OOG. I can't see past two feet. Do my spells abruptly stop after 5 seconds?

b) I have normal vision, but a flash goes off in the darkness and night blinds everyone for five seconds. Do all the combat effects currently in effect end when five seconds pass?

c) if I see you in a mirror, is there LOS?

d) Do windows you can see through block LOS?

Now as far as gypsy curses go... if the player/character needs to be able to actually arget, you need to be able to clarify how he's being seen. You can't assume the gypsy isn't kneeling at the door or looking throught a crack.

Your body NEEDS to be completely blocked by an obstacle. 100%. (thus big tree works, little tree doesn't). Line of sight, Line of Engagement and Line of Vision are three entirely different things.

I get where Spoone is defining LOS but it sounds more like LOE (line of engagement). Maybe it's because he's thinking tactical data and I'm thinking Sniper (It's not my fault darn it... I like my rifle).

FYI- this has been argued a billion times before in NERO and in almost every tactical wargame I've played.

~Barry

 

[jpariury]

You are in your cabin, there is only one window in which you are visible from and it is on the backside of a cabin. A gypsy approaches the front of your cabin knows you're in there and gypsy curses you. He cannot see you, but would be capable of seeing you if he moved. Does the curse take affect?

As Matt, Barry, Sarah, and Spoone pointed out, no.

Secondly you are chasing someone out in the forest. The forest is decently dense( the one in the middle of sight) and you loose track of the person you are chasing. You know they are hiding out there somewhere so cleverly you loudly yell a gypsy curse meaning for them to take it, in which they must make very loud noises. Do they have to take it?

As Sarah, Matt, and Spoone pointed out, no. At it's root, the spirit is that the person using the curse must see their target. The responsibility of establishing line of sight lies on the part of the person casting the curse.

Lastly, similar to the first scenerio, you are in your cabin and the only point at which you are visible from outside the cabin is a small crack under the door. There is a person on the other side of the door that directs their gypsy curse at you. Would they have to look through the crack in order for the curse to be successful, or if their feet were aligned so if they had eyes they could see you, would that suffice?

They need to get on the ground and peek through the crack. Without the player actually seeing their target, they have no means by which to establish LOS.

Lastly hiding behind individual trees, behind mattresses and other similar objects does not count as blocking you from line of sight. At what size must a object be for it to count as a blocking device?

Bigger than a person, at any rate. The idea is that if you're running the fine line of asking, then you probably need something bigger.

 

[Anonymous]

I get where Spoone is defining LOS but it sounds more like LOE (line of engagement). Maybe it's because he's thinking tactical data and I'm thinking Sniper (It's not my fault darn it... I like my rifle).

~Barry

Thanks. Actually, for military purposes, LOS and LOE are one and the same. if you can't see the target, you can't engage the target, ergo... It should be understood that for 'smart weapons', once LOS is acquired, that's it, game over. You've been lased (targeted) and are about to be removed from this plane of existence. You only need to be 'painted' once with a laser-tagger for an initial GPS position to be referenced, and after that...blammo, baby, you're done. (Of course, we don't have smart-packets, so this bit doesn't apply)

Also...if you want to throw sniping into the mix, then yes...LOS does apply, since over long ranges, it is absolutely critical to have full view of your target (and nevermind the fact they these shooters are using monster scopes of some serious magnification capacity...they still have to be able to see the target)

Anyway...just a quick clarification there on LOS vs LOE...

Spoone

 

[Kauss]

what it looks like here, is that nero does not need a full LOS, but only a part LOS, where enuf of the target must be seen to ID the target. Aka, if someone was hidding in the woods and I used a gypsy curse on what I thought was their arm, I could try. But if it turns out that it wasnt them, I would have flubbed it. Even if, they ended up being behind me and I could have seen them if I turned.
Also keep in mind nero uses a diffrent LOS for acquiring a target than keeping one. To acquire one, for gypsy curse, requires you to ID the target and keep a constent unbroken partal LOS. So you have to keep looking at them, and they cant run out of your sight.
Now on the matter of web and other such spells that work untill LOS is broken, LOS is automaticly said to be acquired, and is only broken by a full loss, not a part loss. So there must be something preventing the caster from being able to see the victum for a full 5 seconds that does not involve a stance change (aka if your behind the caster, your still SOL as your still in a LOS for this point.
In the case of a web (for example) a door would break LOS, unless the caster peeked under the door in less than 5 seconds, and saw anything of the victum. In that case LOS is restored.

 

[Slice]

Although this specifically refers to gypsy curse and not "line of sight" in general under the gypsy curse definition (pg.44) it states:

"In order to bestow a Curse,the gypsy must be able to see the victim and must be able to speak. You may not bestow the curse if silenced,unconcious, or blindfolded."

The later enforcing that at least for gypsy curse, line of sight is ment by the spirit of the rules, if you can't see them, they cannot be a successful target.

By the way, thank you everybody for your answers and imput.

 

[Sarah]

A reminder... Line of Sight in NERO expires after 5 seconds.

This does bring up the question:
If I start a gypsy curse, and my target runs out of sight during the incant, BUT I finish the incant before LOS expires, is the target still affected by the curse?

I could see this going either way. Either yes, because you've already visually established the target and they can still hear it. Or no, for the same reason you cannot incant a curse while blindfolded.

Much as I hate this bloody racial, I'm minded to go with yes, it still affects the target, since that would keep LOS consistent.

~Sarah

 

[Balryn]

Much as I hate this bloody racial, I'm minded to go with yes, it still affects the target, since that would keep LOS consistent.

~Sarah

I still think it's funny that we're trying to put combat rules on an RP skill. I would be all for dropping the skill entirely out of the book if people think it's a combat skill or go back to the old gypsy curse skill that was a combat skill and had a packet thrown in combat. At least then the combat effects were worth it, as it is now it doesn't effect combat anyhow- but can now be dodged?

~B

 

[Kauss]

I still think it's funny that we're trying to put combat rules on an RP skill. I would be all for dropping the skill entirely out of the book if people think it's a combat skill or go back to the old gypsy curse skill that was a combat skill and had a packet thrown in combat. At least then the combat effects were worth it, as it is now it doesn't effect combat anyhow- but can now be dodged?

~B

its pretty nasty for a non combat skill tho. It has an unlimited duration, an very restricted cure, and a wide range of effects. As it stands its not usefull as much for combat, but a few good gypsy curses could desamate a group of players. Mostly the act opposite of your nature one (put that on a few anti necro PCs). With this set up, I can see why players might want to pin down how it works. Moreso as it isnt sheildable by any curent defences.

 

[Balryn]

its pretty nasty for a non combat skill tho. It has an unlimited duration, an very restricted cure, and a wide range of effects. As it stands its not usefull as much for combat, but a few good gypsy curses could desamate a group of players. Mostly the act opposite of your nature one (put that on a few anti necro PCs). With this set up, I can see why players might want to pin down how it works. Moreso as it isnt sheildable by any curent defences.

Yes... but it's a roleplay skill, which is supposed to be used to enhance roleplay. It's also the only skill in the book that can get you banned from your race for using it. Being an anti-necro PC and getting cursed doesn't do diddly to the character since it only affects a single aspect of the personality. It would be entirely up to the player to choose going from "Healer to Necro", which I've never seen done.

I would much rather it be moved to a combat type curse and be able to curse someone with destruction, laughing or something. Under a very old edition that is how it was and it worked much easier just like the effect (and stopped complaints that it was such an odd skill).

~B