Metagaming based on knowledge of NPC characteristics

[Alex319]

(Note: Although this question is not Denver-specific, I am asking this in the Denver chapter forums rather than the main rules forums because my experience has been that these types of questions often get lots of conflicting responses, so I am interested in how the players and marshals in the Denver chapter specifically feel about this. Feel free to move this thread if you think it would belong better in one of the general rules forums.)

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We know that using out-of-game information to make in-game decisions is wrong. However in some cases it seems that there is a gray area where you make decisions based on knowledge about the NPCs (i.e. the player playing them) in an encounter. For instance:

"I know that guy is a really good melee fighter (OOG), so I'll stay away from him."

"I have a Disarm spell, and I know that Alice usually counts a full 5 seconds on it but Bob counts fast and usually picks it up after 3 seconds, so I'll cast the spell on Alice and not Bob."

"The Big Area-Effect Thing of Doom here hurts anyone who gets within 20 feet of it. But I've seen the person marshaling this encounter before, and what he/she judges as 20 feet is actually closer to 30 feet, so I'll avoid getting closer than 30 feet."

"The Big Area-Effect Thing of Doom here hurts anyone who gets within 20 feet of it. But I've seen the person marshaling this encounter before, and what he/she judges as 20 feet is actually closer to 10 feet, so it's fine for me to hang out 15 feet away from it."

"I have fought Charlie before in practice and he always fakes a shot to my right shoulder and then hits my left hip, so I'll need to watch out for that."

"I know that this guy that I'm fighting often has trouble feeling shots that hit close to the bottom of his legs, so I won't aim at that location."

Would these types of reasoning be considered metagaming?

 

[Graham Wolsey]

My opinion on these things:

Firstly, metagaming is inevitable, the best way to prevent something from crossing the OOG-IG boundary is to keep that information from circulating OOG. That said, you are right that we need to try to prevent these things from crossing over.

1. If you have fought with someone IG before you should certainly be able to use all the knowledge to your benefit. If you haven't fought against someone you probably shouldn't use your OOG knowledge against them IG, but honestly a lot of it is subconscious and inevitable. I know for a fact that both PCs and NPCs will react differently to things based on the fighting skills of people. I've seen NPCs avoid certain PCs because of this and use bigger effects on more experienced PCs and I've seen PCs use different spells based on who is playing what. Is this meta gaming? I'd say yes. It is even trickier for NPCs because they have repops and it seems the repops always have the same battlefield information as the now-dead versions of the same monster. This is all human, but it is something everyone should work on to avoid.

2. This isn't a metagaming issue, this is a rules issue. Bob is not playing according to the rules and should adjust his play. If Bob refuses to do so you should speak with a marshal about it IMO. If Bob still continues to not adjust his play then by all means use this information to your advantage because it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

3. The Marshal is in control of what "truth" is in the game. I would act per that "truth". As with the above issue I would respectfully and at the right time speak with the Marshal about my opinion on areas to let them know my concern.

4. Same as above.

5. Tied closely to #1. To me this is more borderline. Honestly, combat is so fast it just isn't practical to consider what you know about a person's fighting style and filter it through a what does my PC know here what do "I" know. In a perfect world where my brain has infinite RAM I would do this but I doubt ANYONE would hold you to that standard in LARP.

6. Same as above, but also this is a combination with point 2. If a person isn't taking all their shots I would respectfully and at an appropriate time speak with them about it.

 

[Cedric]

As to the meta-gaming, eh, myself I'm not too worried about it myself. It is going to happen, and it's not a filter I really care to impose upon my own RPing. I know that I've seen David out there with a packet full of energy. I know he isn't going to engage me, he's going to skirmish and I'll have to play a skirmish game against him. Since my knowledge of this isn't really impacting other PCs, mostly only NPCs, I'm going to fight him to the best of my ability, even if that includes using some OOG knowledge. Now everyone is going to play this differently, and they should that they can enjoy the game in their own way.

 

[llywelyn]

I also think it is worth noting that some "metagaming" can be rationally justified in the sorts of decisions you'd make, so overthinking some of these questions can be counterproductive and lead to decisions that your character wouldn't actually make in the moment.

For example, I am a Chaos Lord approaching a line of PCs. I look up and down the line of PCs and I see, not just a line of generic PCs and not just PCs who I know and have fought as other characters before, but a variety of in game characteristics. I see who is a flanker, I see who is giving commands, I see who is trying to ineffectually intimidate me by reciting their in-game accomplishments.

I can generally tell you on a line who is a celestial caster or a healer based on how they position themselves and their general behavior. I can certainly tell who are the skirmishers, who are the front line, and who are the support units without a whole lot of effort. I can also hear perfectly well, so when someone calls out "WE NEED A CASTER OVER HERE TO DEAL WITH THE DESECRATED ONE" or "EVERYONE ATTACK WHEN I RING THE BELL" I can generally infer—in game—what is about to happen and take a few educated guesses.

Similarly, you see me skirting the back edge, it doesn't take much to identify the person who is currently running at a tangential to your main line with two swords is probably not a main-line fighter. You can also probably assume that your character may have noticed that I look, from an IG perspective, more dangerous than others who have the same description.

Sitting there and second guessing all of this or forcing yourself to do via type II thinking what you would normally manage via type I thinking, even if that type I thinking is using shortcuts your character would not use, I don't necessarily think is hugely productive.

This can, of course, get ridiculous. Suddenly a 10bodyswinging2s creature starts routinely being taken out by the highest level spells, because they are being played by me. I may be better than the other 10bodyswinging2s creature that's right next to me, but I'm not better than the thing throwing 'arcane death' over there. That's metagaming in a way you wouldn't do in game and is more of a problem, so it is worth reflecting on and avoiding where you can, but to me isn't worth obsessing about too much.

 

[Emaric]

From my role as an NPC, I usually jump around the fighting line to get a different fight in itself. It helps me become a better fighter in the short term, but for when I encounter newer players I don't fight at full speed, unless I know about them and their skills. Which I usually try to give whom ever I am fighting a good challenge, in a way that's all metagaming for the greater good of enjoyment for the PCs involved. So, it is all about defining the rules of metagaming for good or bad.