Nero Bootcamp

[jwconvery]

I didn't want to hijack the plot thread to talk about this one point.

I dislike how mods/town battles have turned into epic level fights every single time. .....

I remember a time when Nero players from MI were known for their badassery. That day has long since passed, and it saddens me. We made due without magic items and transforms. We fought big cards with skill, not with bigger cards. Somewhere along the line, the "Nero bootcamp" I remember turned into Nero Daycare. We had a sink or swim type of world, and it created hard-nosed, intuitive, regulators that were known literally across the country. They were created by being forced to rely upon their wits, tactics, and skill, and those who didn't make the cut learned damn quick if they wanted to measure up. I don't see PC's being tested like that any longer.
Steve

While these two statements seem to contradict each other I think I understand your point. Please correct me if I incorrectly summerise your meaning. You would like players tested and to grow stronger/become better players due to those tests, without plot resorting to massive NPC cards that require massive PC's with MI's to handle. Having one more life spell then the NPC's death spells is not what you are asking for.

I am just looking for some examples. While I played some Kzoo 'back in the day' I did not make the cut, so I don't have the memories to draw from. Without making huge cards, I don't see the way to challenge huge PC's. If you want to fight big cards with skill, people need to have smaller cards, or less magic items, or you have to make BIG NPC cards.

MI's are very easy to get with goblin stamps, and the general power level of the game has increased due to that. So if plot begins dialling down the epic fight every time, then the resources of the PC's will still be inflated for the "win with skill fight" so less skill is required.

If we, as a chapter, want a more 'hardcore' game then there has to be an understanding between Plot and Players. Plot wont make every fight full of Arcane Dragon Magic and the Players wont goblin stamp a ton of MI's to make every encounter a joke.

I am not sure what the answer is, just looking for a dialog if this is what the chapter wants to do.

@ Stevie,
I am not trying to downplay your comments, it sounds like a cool idea. I just honestly don't know how to accomplish this, without build caps or MI limits.

-Joe

 

[Tank]

I think you have a grasp for what Steve is saying but you don't yet have an answer for his dilemma. Honestly I agree with this part of Steve's post on the Plot thread. I believe that the use of an NPC only skill, arcane renew, has been overused to the point of redundancy. The idea that everything is epic or everything is world shattering is a concept that really has to go away. The plot that must be fixed right away, in my opinion, is the plot that has been left unattended by PC's over an elongated period of time and therefore should be epic to some degree; because it has been left dormant to fester and or gain power pending the specifics of the actual plot line.
There is also generally a "main" plot, or several "main" plots that should require a number of people or a certain level of "toughness" to beat but that should be in ENDING the plot, not in reaching the end. The idea of large cards is neat, and surely should be used in some situations to test the PC's or to compensate the PC's for screwing up (if the shoe fits) but only in those situations. Take Dougs last event for instance... Surrounding the tavern were flowers, these flowers were set in place to keep the tavern on the plane in which the event took place. These flowers were gathered by PC's several events prior to Dougs event. It was clearly stated, perhaps not to everyone, that if humans were to consume enough of these flowers that the tavern would never be able to leave this plane to travel back to Fortannis. Another complication to this rule was that if a human was able to consume a flower it became a Banshee type creature and its power level was increased by a substantial amount. Stopping the humans from attaining the flowers at this point seems like a trivial task, but necessary. At some points the PC's did a great job, even running full speed from the tavern to the trail near PC camp to interrupt or kill a human who was eating a flower. It wasn't till Saturday afternoon that people started covering the flowers and making them unseen to the naked eye to prevent humans from getting to them even further. There are certainly different reasons for this, but none the less it ended up biting some PC's in the *** because this problem wasn't taken care of in a timely fashion. This is a necessity when it comes to plot in my opinion, if their are no drawbacks to not taking care of something then the world we are playing in is absolutely unrealistic.
On that note, there are plenty of ways to make things rough without even having to have pc's use skills at all. Making monsters with certain immunities or resistances is one easy way out but doesn't solve the problem entirely. The use of riddles or puzzles on mods can give a pc a great time with absolutely no expended skills involved, and the idea of "death by attrition" is one of my favorite concepts that is rarely if ever used in Nero anymore. This example is long as I apologize for those who weren't there: Back when we still played in Kalamazoo we would have some events on the cubscout side of the campground which was a MUCH nicer campground then most I have ever been to. Needless during this specific event we were having troubles with Sarr. Now the exact components of the plot itself I am leaving out but in lue of that we had something the Sarr wanted so they came after us. One of the cabins at this site was literally a barricade, it had a fort wall around it and a courtyard, and every PC save for a few was held up inside this cabin for what had to of been three hours. During that time we fought more Sarr then you could shake a stick at, and the cards were nothing special. I may be wrong but I don't even think we saw more then one or two casters if that within the Sarr ranks. Now you might think, '' oh thats no fun", or why would you want to do something like that? But realistically it was a BLAST. After awhile you start wondering how long its going to last and in the beginning your probably using skills because you never thought it would amount to three hours of painstaking fight but it did, so here you are trying to conserve what little you have left after being a showoff and people are falling and lines are breaking and overall.... its a great time. Things like this, using small cards over long periods, can be just as effective as using one big card. More then not, these kinds of battles are MORE effective because they entertain for a lot more time then one big card. All in all, the one thing that can prevent this from being done is lack of enough NPC's, but even with four or five NPC's it works.
As far as magic items go, I do think the amount within the game is ridiculous, but that wont change anytime soon. Magic items are super easy to get around as long as you think hard enough. If anyone has anything to add or comment on, feel free. Not bashing anyone or any ideas, just stating how I feel/how my brain works. Thanks again.

Tank

 

[Steve]

If contradiction was found, it was not intended. You seem to have divulged my main points. I don't think every fight in town should be of epic quality. A lich can come in with a few death knights and screw around for an hour or two with nothing more than a 4 column. Just depends on how those NPC's are played. Many people play NPC's like lazy *** time bombs. That ruins my in-game atmosphere. People should be playing anything sentient like they're own character. Cagey and unwilling to die. Instead, NPC's play their cards like rabid bulls and charge in and die in a matter of moments. What happened to roleplaying? What happened to the fear of death for the NPC? Examples needed? Examples 'a plenty.

I played a card back in Kzoo that SHOULD have had rift on it, but the plot person forgot to write it on there. All she told me was "Don't get caught". So when I was discovered to be a shady bastard, I don't think it should be any surprise that I literally ran so far and so long from those pursuing me that I ended up on a main road and had to hitch a ride back to camp in the bed of some dude's truck (thank god that NPC didn't require makeup). I didn't give up and die because I didn't feel like running. I didn't bitch and moan because I knew halfway through my exodus that this card should have had rift on it. Do you know what chasing an NPC through a mile of brush and two backyards does to a PC? Creates a dangerously real sense of HATE, and that only intensifies that PC's roleplay next time that NPC comes to town. That creates good roleplay. That is good plot.

Mike Modlin (most of you who are unfortunate not to know) played an NPC named Vekril/The Thrice Bound Man. When he finally came to town, the entire town chased him around for hours. I vomited that night because I'd chased him so long. Why did we all do that? Because Mikey and Seth has created such a hate for this NPC in our character's minds that we would have walked across hot coals if we knew it meant his capture. They did so through intricate plot, intense roleplay, and dedicated NPC'ing. Vekril couldn't fight any six of us at one point, his card simply wasn't big enough. But he lasted all night through wily ways and pure skill. He used lackeys and other PC's to thwart those who might capture him. That is how you do it.

Magic items a problem? Start destroying them. Start DM'ing peoples spirits. Create a creature that eats magic items (we did back when John owned the chapter, though he really failed to pull the trigger). Here's a novel idea: Jump PC's and take their ****. If magic items are flowing like Candy Mountain, I would assume banditos are being drawn to the area. Hide in the woods and get yer roll on. Lure people into the woods to talk and have your crew-in-waiting lay some pipe. Drag people off on mods, take their items, and run yer *** away. Start throwing Suppress. Lots of options/get arounds.

But I agree, magic items are too easy to obtain. Tell your chapter owner. Ask him to bump up the cost of items. Ask him to take the auto-spirit lock off all of the items you buy. Ask him to create a magic item policy that limits how many items each player is allowed at check in. Tom needs customers. If those customers are upset, Tom should be upset. If Tom refuses to change what many want changed, he'll most likely have to deal with PC's leaving an already low PC based chapter. Open forums like this, though, are the way to get opinions backers and owners info.

And I don't feel like you were downplaying my thoughts, no worries, Joe. It's good that you're initiating conversation. I am surprised to say that least that so many have opted not to say a single word to my original post. And it's good that you ask, there are plenty that have been around long enough to explain (though it appears only Tank and I are the ones who possess voices). I do want to point out, though, that you make a build cap or magic item limit sound like the end of Nero as we know it. Those are two fantastic ideas, in my opinion. Limiting the amount of magic items is an amazing idea, honestly. I loved that aspect of the game up in TC. Made me feel like my 9th level spells actually mattered. And as for a build cap, you chose the wrong person to use that as an example of drastic measures; I've been lobbying for a build wipe since John took over the chapter, and well into Tom's ownership. Make people understand what it's like to not have a life spell in town and know that if you drop and get KB'ed, you're f*cking rezzing. Death spell = rez spell. It was a beautiful, yet short-lived time. A build cap is a less drastic way of evening the playing field, and I for one would be so into it you'd have to drag me from the campsite on Sunday.

Steve

 

[Noni]

To address

I didn't want to hijack the plot thread to talk about this one point.

I dislike how mods/town battles have turned into epic level fights every single time. .....

I remember a time when Nero players from MI were known for their badassery. That day has long since passed, and it saddens me. We made due without magic items and transforms. We fought big cards with skill, not with bigger cards. Somewhere along the line, the "Nero bootcamp" I remember turned into Nero Daycare. We had a sink or swim type of world, and it created hard-nosed, intuitive, regulators that were known literally across the country. They were created by being forced to rely upon their wits, tactics, and skill, and those who didn't make the cut learned damn quick if they wanted to measure up. I don't see PC's being tested like that any longer.
Steve

While these two statements seem to contradict each other I think I understand your point. Please correct me if I incorrectly summerise your meaning. You would like players tested and to grow stronger/become better players due to those tests, without plot resorting to massive NPC cards that require massive PC's with MI's to handle. Having one more life spell then the NPC's death spells is not what you are asking for.

I am just looking for some examples. While I played some Kzoo 'back in the day' I did not make the cut, so I don't have the memories to draw from. Without making huge cards, I don't see the way to challenge huge PC's. If you want to fight big cards with skill, people need to have smaller cards, or less magic items, or you have to make BIG NPC cards.

MI's are very easy to get with goblin stamps, and the general power level of the game has increased due to that. So if plot begins dialling down the epic fight every time, then the resources of the PC's will still be inflated for the "win with skill fight" so less skill is required.

If we, as a chapter, want a more 'hardcore' game then there has to be an understanding between Plot and Players. Plot wont make every fight full of Arcane Dragon Magic and the Players wont goblin stamp a ton of MI's to make every encounter a joke.

I am not sure what the answer is, just looking for a dialog if this is what the chapter wants to do.

@ Stevie,
I am not trying to downplay your comments, it sounds like a cool idea. I just honestly don't know how to accomplish this, without build caps or MI limits.

-Joe

I don't think making huge cards is the only way to challange PCs. I personally feel that it is not about the PC level or number of magic items that PC's have that make the game fun or deadly. I certainly feel that some things need to be nerfed and I HATE the amount of MIs in the game, but when I read the exerpt from Steve's post, I feel it is more of an issue of having interesting, fresh, and TOUGH plot lines. I believe "Nero Bootcamp" had a lot more to do with using brains and crazy ideas than using fighters swinging 20's pushing through line battles. During the the time Steve is refering to at Nero Kzoo, people were very emotionally tied to the plot. I personally wasn't, but many of my friends were.

The best time I have ever had at Nero/Alliance was when Josh, Amy, Mitch, Matt, and Nancy first started running events. I felt like there was SO MUCH going on plotwise that was interesting and challenging. John, Doug H., and I litereally came home and created webs on a white board with all of the info we knew and tried to fill in the blank spots of what we didn't. We were so immersed in the game that we spent tons of time planning out what we were going to do at the next event. The plot team had created this giant spiderweb that was so much fun to try to put together.

That's not to say that having big scary fights wasn't apart of my fun, because it was...but what MADE it fun was that I was so emotionally apart of it that I HATED the NPC we were fighting. Ezra is a great example that many people are familar with.

~AL

 

[Durk Bloodrune]

One way to entertain high level PCs is to use smaller cards with aggressive NPCs (or NPCs who are told to be very aggressive) and near endless respawns. Last event Doug ran a mod for the OEF and others with VERY low body & low skill cards, comparatively speaking. Ultimately, the NPCs level of intensity playing those cards had the OEF on their heels and was a fun and entertaining mod for those PCs.

Another way to entertain high level PCs (or any PC for that matter) is with unique roleplay. During the first year of Tom owning the chapter, Mitch was able to entertain me, Alison, Doug H., and MANY others with ONE NPC. Doug H., Alison, and myself would stay with this NPC for HOURS ON END. There was no fighting big cards with tons of resists to compensate for our thousands upon thousands of magic items, there was just roleplay. Hours and hours of very intense and very VERY creepy roleplay.

Ezra is also a great example. Even though he was a very tough card, the unique way he went about including all PCs in his plot was fantastic. You like your Orcs? Well, they are mine now. Have fun fighting them. Yeah, Durk had some CRAZY hate for that guy.

All Im saying is that there are options to entertain high level PCs; you just have to think outside of the "throw bigger cards at them" box.

Things that I would agree to, as a player, that I feel would benefit our chapter as a whole:

1.) No more buying Magic Items with Goblins
2.) "Normalizing" or even completely getting rid of all active Transforms
3.) Build Cap
4.) Campaign wide Suppression aura (... make it a plot device that the PCs have to get rid of)
5.) Offering Retirement programs that allow 1 high level PC to split into 2 mid level PCs or 3 lower level PCs or whatever.

Just my thoughts.

GJ