New Character Production Points
- Thread starter Draven
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Draven
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Right, but a new character (freshly put on a character sheet for the event in question) doesn't have a downtime prior to the event in question, and thus, mechanically speaking, did not exist. And a starting character's starting gear is set via the rulebook. So, storyline-perspective, if this character is my lil' bro, why wouldn't he have some of my resources to make things with? However, RP doesn't trump mechanics, and thus my question.
evi1r0n
Baron
They don't have to have an official downtime to exist. Characters who do not turn in down times don't just stand there until the next game, they live and interact in non-plot influenced ways. You can't gain tangible resources from plot via down time but players/characters are free to do as they wish with their hard earned loot. Outfitting a new player pre game is not a big deal in my book. There is no mechanic to cover this and thus it is up to the players to justify the situation. Starting gear is there for those people who come into game not knowing any one (like I did back in the day). Giving your biddy some coin that you intend on having in your group pre-lay on to cover production is no different than handing them a bunch of magic items 10min into the game.
Example: New player Dave creates a character, Willis the Crusher. He doesn't have time to write a back story or do any form of down time. His friends want to know him coming into game so they meet in a land outside of the normal plot influenced game world. During this (unofficial) "down time" Frank the Brave gives Willis some coin.
Example: New player Dave creates a character, Willis the Crusher. He doesn't have time to write a back story or do any form of down time. His friends want to know him coming into game so they meet in a land outside of the normal plot influenced game world. During this (unofficial) "down time" Frank the Brave gives Willis some coin.
Alavatar
Baron
Long story short: there is no rule supporting it.
There is logic and there are rules. Rules trump logic until the rule is changed to be logical. A new character coming into game for the first time receives the same starting equipment as everyone else for the same reason they don't start with a full boat of protectives, regardless of if their backstory includes interaction with another PC. The rules are very specific about what a player starts with.
After a character comes into game for the first time players and Plot can do whatever they want.
There is logic and there are rules. Rules trump logic until the rule is changed to be logical. A new character coming into game for the first time receives the same starting equipment as everyone else for the same reason they don't start with a full boat of protectives, regardless of if their backstory includes interaction with another PC. The rules are very specific about what a player starts with.
After a character comes into game for the first time players and Plot can do whatever they want.
evi1r0n
Baron
Right, I understand that but there isn't anything stopping a PC from giving a new PC coin before their first game (I have seen it done), at least to my knowledge. They can't cast protectives on them (because that must be done at game) but tangible items (like coin and production) aren't governed by a universal trade rule. Basically there is no rule forbidding it. This is all the ARB has to say about it:
"When you play your first event as a new
character, you are given certain starting materials
that your character should have in-game.
After that, you’re on your own."
(Page 78)
"When you play your first event as a new
character, you are given certain starting materials
that your character should have in-game.
After that, you’re on your own."
(Page 78)
Alavatar
Baron
Just because there isn't a rule prohibiting it doesn't mean it is allowed. The ARB and the ARC should not have to detail every specific situation that is not allowed.
Just because it was allowed in the past doesn't mean it was done correctly in the past.
Think about the precedence. Since there is no rule prohibiting it if it is allowed it could lead to the following:
a) Getting in trouble because "that's the way we have always done it" vs. "that's not how it is done on the East Coast and the East Coast is always right". I don't want those arguments rearing their ugly heads again.
b) If it is allowed and we don't get into trouble for it, what about handing off Magic Items? What about a character that has Spirit Linked items that is retired but his "friend" is around when he dies? What about someone purchasing a workshop for a character that technically doesn't exist, yet? What about a player getting gold from players and waits 4 years to come into play and how is that different from a player starting a secondary character and finds a pile of gold in his "new characters" chest when he plays the character the first time? Since there is no rule prohibiting it, allowing the above can lead to a slippery slope.
c) If it is allowed and we don't get into trouble, then why not have Plot have an NPC that "happens to equip new adventurers before they come into game" and pull the PP from TP for those saps that come into game as an L20 character with just a longsword and a spell book? I mean, why would an L20 character really only have 12 copper to their name other than them being a recent fugitive, deserter, or slave of some sort? Or even an L10 character for that matter? I mean, allowing the above request is essentially Plot approving the background of the character saying he received money from PC Zeth. So, why not receive money from NPC Gary?
Editted to add d) What about a new player with Merchant? His friends gave him all their stuff and want to have it all Merchant'd on Friday evening? (Note that if anyone asks I will tell them to wait until Saturday)
It is better to stick to the rules as written so trouble doesn't start brewing. I know it isn't game-breaking to allow it, but I don't want a precedence to be set or another WC vs. EC battle in Rules Interpretation. The ones I may have allowed in the past (if I did, for I cannot remember doing it; I know I have allowed people to use their starting CP to pay for PP items which is acceptable) were mistakes on my part.
There are ways around the rule such as having a Mod or Gameday before the event so the character has come into play before-hand, thus allowing you to get money to use your PP at the event. But, a Module is a rather cheesy way to get around the rule in my opinion.
Just because it was allowed in the past doesn't mean it was done correctly in the past.
Think about the precedence. Since there is no rule prohibiting it if it is allowed it could lead to the following:
a) Getting in trouble because "that's the way we have always done it" vs. "that's not how it is done on the East Coast and the East Coast is always right". I don't want those arguments rearing their ugly heads again.
b) If it is allowed and we don't get into trouble for it, what about handing off Magic Items? What about a character that has Spirit Linked items that is retired but his "friend" is around when he dies? What about someone purchasing a workshop for a character that technically doesn't exist, yet? What about a player getting gold from players and waits 4 years to come into play and how is that different from a player starting a secondary character and finds a pile of gold in his "new characters" chest when he plays the character the first time? Since there is no rule prohibiting it, allowing the above can lead to a slippery slope.
c) If it is allowed and we don't get into trouble, then why not have Plot have an NPC that "happens to equip new adventurers before they come into game" and pull the PP from TP for those saps that come into game as an L20 character with just a longsword and a spell book? I mean, why would an L20 character really only have 12 copper to their name other than them being a recent fugitive, deserter, or slave of some sort? Or even an L10 character for that matter? I mean, allowing the above request is essentially Plot approving the background of the character saying he received money from PC Zeth. So, why not receive money from NPC Gary?
Editted to add d) What about a new player with Merchant? His friends gave him all their stuff and want to have it all Merchant'd on Friday evening? (Note that if anyone asks I will tell them to wait until Saturday)
It is better to stick to the rules as written so trouble doesn't start brewing. I know it isn't game-breaking to allow it, but I don't want a precedence to be set or another WC vs. EC battle in Rules Interpretation. The ones I may have allowed in the past (if I did, for I cannot remember doing it; I know I have allowed people to use their starting CP to pay for PP items which is acceptable) were mistakes on my part.
There are ways around the rule such as having a Mod or Gameday before the event so the character has come into play before-hand, thus allowing you to get money to use your PP at the event. But, a Module is a rather cheesy way to get around the rule in my opinion.
Just because there isn't a rule permitting it doesn't mean it is forbidden. The ARB and the ARC should not have to detail every specific situation that is allowed.
To me, the circumstance that Evan is describing is morally equivalent to any exchanges made during downtime. The rulebook doesn't explicitly allow interactions during downtime to affect game events. We usually allow these kinds of things, because it's easier to do so than to try to police it, and a strict adherence doesn't add to the game. I'll give a couple of examples.
Prashka is very well traveled and has met a character named Bob the Blacksmith on the east coast, a well-known production machine. Some time later, she decides that she needs a massive quantity of Enslavement Antidotes to help keep her family safe. She PMs Bob the Blacksmith on the national boards, and requests a shipment. They're not going to be attending the same event for a while, but Bob has an event coming up where he can make all those enslavement antidotes. They agree on a price, and (since they trust each other OOG), mail each other the requisite coin/tags. In-game, they can say they met up through the mists at some point to make the exchange. One interpretation of the rules is that that exchange could not have been made, since at no point did they actually meet IG.
Kiarra and Garrick are both in line for pre-game logistics. Garrick's spell book is still in his luggage, so to avoid having to run back and dig it out, he asks Kiarra to borrow hers. Since he's a member of the Earth Guild, and Kiarra's a nice person, she agrees. They are both allowed to memorize off that spell book, despite not having made this exchange in an IG way.
Mixer is the quartermaster for the Company of the Broken Chain, so he takes all group item tags home with him. He's not going to be able to attend the next game day, though, so the player of the leader of the group stops by Mixer's player's house and picks up some tags before going to the game day. The Black then brings in items for Company members to use, despite having never received them from Mixer IG. The IG explanation is that he picked them up from his house on the way out. One rules interpretation is that the Company is just hosed out of their group stores for that event.
Anyway, on to your actual concerns:
Anyway, if you don't want to allow that kind of thing for new characters in Alliance Seattle, I'm not going to hue and cry. It's just a matter of delaying a day before you can get the full effectiveness of your production-based character. However, I don't find your arguments as to why it shouldn't be allowed compelling.
I would argue that there's no rule explicitly supporting this, and that new and old characters should be treated the same in this regard.Alavatar said:
To me, the circumstance that Evan is describing is morally equivalent to any exchanges made during downtime. The rulebook doesn't explicitly allow interactions during downtime to affect game events. We usually allow these kinds of things, because it's easier to do so than to try to police it, and a strict adherence doesn't add to the game. I'll give a couple of examples.
Prashka is very well traveled and has met a character named Bob the Blacksmith on the east coast, a well-known production machine. Some time later, she decides that she needs a massive quantity of Enslavement Antidotes to help keep her family safe. She PMs Bob the Blacksmith on the national boards, and requests a shipment. They're not going to be attending the same event for a while, but Bob has an event coming up where he can make all those enslavement antidotes. They agree on a price, and (since they trust each other OOG), mail each other the requisite coin/tags. In-game, they can say they met up through the mists at some point to make the exchange. One interpretation of the rules is that that exchange could not have been made, since at no point did they actually meet IG.
Kiarra and Garrick are both in line for pre-game logistics. Garrick's spell book is still in his luggage, so to avoid having to run back and dig it out, he asks Kiarra to borrow hers. Since he's a member of the Earth Guild, and Kiarra's a nice person, she agrees. They are both allowed to memorize off that spell book, despite not having made this exchange in an IG way.
Mixer is the quartermaster for the Company of the Broken Chain, so he takes all group item tags home with him. He's not going to be able to attend the next game day, though, so the player of the leader of the group stops by Mixer's player's house and picks up some tags before going to the game day. The Black then brings in items for Company members to use, despite having never received them from Mixer IG. The IG explanation is that he picked them up from his house on the way out. One rules interpretation is that the Company is just hosed out of their group stores for that event.
Anyway, on to your actual concerns:
That's certainly an undesirable outcome, but if you look at the IG national boards, half of the posts are people making exchanges between games, some of whom explicitly indicate that they are willing to mail coin. If this kind of exchange is happening on the national board, I don't think we'll run into EC/WC issues. New characters coming into game with more possessions than their normal starting amount seems like they were given things before game starts, something that seems to be allowed for existing characters, and even before your first event, the character does exist in the database.Alavatar said:
Long story short, I don't find any of your slippery slope examples compelling. There are rules prohibiting some of them, and others I don't have a problem with, but I'll address them individually. I don't have a problem handing off MIs before game, particularly since they could, under certain circumstances, gobbie ones that they could come into game yet. Willing MIs when you retire your character is explicitly forbidden (though I have seen it happen), and a chapter's retirement policy dictates what happens to those, so I don't see a Spirit Link transfer happening. I don't have a problem with having an initial workshop. I don't see a problem with sitting on gold for 4 years, but trade between alts is explicitly forbidden, even using other players as proxies.Alavatar said:
If a chapter's Plot team decides to do this, I don't have a problem with it from a national rules perspective, though I wouldn't want to do it for our chapter. We are doing something similar, though, by giving people gobbies for an approved background, which amounts to extra build.Alavatar said:
Allowing this doesn't seem game-breaking to me.Alavatar said:
Anyway, if you don't want to allow that kind of thing for new characters in Alliance Seattle, I'm not going to hue and cry. It's just a matter of delaying a day before you can get the full effectiveness of your production-based character. However, I don't find your arguments as to why it shouldn't be allowed compelling.
Avaran
Baron
This part is actually explicitly covered in the ARB (see page 101 of the 1.1 ARB under Spell Books), and allowed to happen.
As for the other concerns, I think it very much comes down to the spirit of the rules, or at the very least intent.
I think that the intention is that every character starts with the same things available to them; the rules are very altruistic as far as making sure people are as equal as can be legislated, and most of this game's rules have been written around the premise that you're doing things that you couldn't normally do. Profs are symbolic of your character's skill with a weapon, regardless of how skilled you actually are, it's meant to even things up some what, with athletic ability and natural skill things you just can't write rules for.
On page 9 of the ARB (under Your First Weekend), there's a small but telling sentence: "You don't feel too bad, because every other character staring the game gets the same thing." -- I think that's a pretty strong "you can't do that" message.
This, to me, implies that starting characters are meant to get their starting gear, and nothing else. I think what happens after that is open for interpretation and local ruling, however I think there's a reasonable conclusion that can be made with regard to that as well.
The game doesn't have a "pause" button (holds don't count, we try to avoid those), life doesn't have a pause button, so there's some amount of leeway there because logically, in-game, life goes on for the characters as well, and if players want to meet up out of game to trade items, coin, components, or items, there's really no good reason to say "no" to that. They don't gain build/experience, they don't have plot, they don't directly interact with the game world. Further, there's nothing that can reasonably be done to stop it from happening.
One of the many reasons why the EC/WC thing isn't really going on any more is because there has been a great deal of effort on both ends to get people on the same page, and to make sure that people are reading the same rules from the same book; and stuff like this is exactly the kind of stuff that got that whole thing started in the first place. So for the purposes of opening up that can of worms again, it's best to error on the side of caution. Besides, I don't think what happens on the National Boards -- outside of official announcements and Clarifications, or other Official Stuff -- has any bearing on how chapters are run or players play. The assumption that the requisite national staff or powers that be even sees half the stuff posted there is a big one to make. They have Moderators, but as far as I know, they don't handle rules violations with regard to the game, and that certainly isn't ARC's function.
I suppose my overall point is that we don't want to be lemmings running off of the cliff with all of the other racoon-kin...I mean...lemmings.
evi1r0n
Baron
Not really because I, Ron plot guy can create a character. Then gobby some sweet LCO magic gear for that character and dragon stamp some sweet restricted gear and come in at level 1 with 20 rits worth of sweet *** magic items. So I could come into the game with a hell of a lot more than Ted the new guy walking in off of the street.Avaran said:
Avaran said:
In addition to Ron's thing, which is worth noting but rare, there is a much more common occurrence of new characters coming in after having NPC'd, and not having a first-level character. I don't really think we should consider the "Your First Weekend" section binding. Any character who comes in as part of an existing group violates this section, since they effectively have more than a character who doesn't, both in access to tangible things (like extra weapons and armor), and intangible things (like social ins and access to group plot). Our discussion is only about what you're allowed to do with your initial logistics session, when you may have already done things like communicate with people on the forums and negotiate trade, the former explicitly sanctioned in the rulebook, and the latter heavily implied, as you point out.
Certainly not everyone reads the national boards, but there are representatives from EC and WC, so it can be an indicator of what the various players expect. Anyway, I'm not convinced that erring either way is preferable (that is, neither error is on the side of caution), since a difference either way is a potential conflict. If you think this is likely to cause contention, we should put it up for ARC, so we can all be on the same page. It doesn't seem like a big enough deal to cause a schism, but I don't know all the history.
Avaran
Baron
evi1r0n said:
That is referring to things you get automatically from the game as a matter of stuff you start with, and nothing extra. All of those other things are subject to plot approval (multi-character backgrounds also fun under this) -- from printing the scrolls, spending the gobbies, getting the rit cast before the game (which means you aren't technically coming into game for the first time), and you're also likely to have an approved background and other gobbies to gobbie 3 months worth of blankets/events/gamedays, which puts you way past level one. And even if you don't do that, you're still post level 1 with the XP from the custom mod you ran before the game to get all of those sweet sweet rits cast and items made. All of that requires explicit plot approval and is therefore controllable under chapter policy.
There are ways to cheese the **** **** **** **** out of the system, no question. We could always just tell our friend(s) to donate a couple hundred dollars, black-blanket everything, and then buy some LCO scrolls to get cast for a custom mod so they too can have some sweet sweet loot romance. But those generally aren't standard things that happen, and could arguably not be legal as against the "spirit" of the rules. I don't know, that's not my area. Just talkin' here.
At that point, are you going to open it up to people to show up on site for their first ever game, plop down $400, apply those gobbies to their "account", then allow them to buy back monthlies, gamedays, and events; then go through the playground of trying to print off scrolls, deduct the right number of gobbies, and run a custom module all before game, all as a customer service thing? Would you be willing to do it for everyone to avoid the old "favoritism" argument? (Maybe that is what it all comes down to? Avoiding all of that extra work and all of that extra headache from potentially unhappy people?)
As a baseline starting point, everyone gets the same stuff -- 12 Cu and tags for starting gear.
I don't know that it's really worth bugging ARC about; personally, it seems like something that falls under Logistics domain and how much extra they are willing to do, and how much variance they are willing to allow. And, does plot want to make that a thing where you guys have to have someone available pre-event start to deal with all of that?
At some point, a line needs to be drawn (so to speak) with regard to policy and what is and isn't allowed, or you're more likely to have to deal with things like I described above (we've had that sort of attempted in OR, no ****). And if you allow it once, you're going to have to allow it again...
While I certainly concur with the sentiment, Seth and Cymryc are correct.
You can gobby coin, you can gobby production, you can even gobby MI's if the chapter you're starting in allows it. Otherwise, you start with 12cp and what your skills allow for via the rules.
There is only one way to circumvent the 'starting treasure' rule: pull it from treasure policy for the weekend.
You can gobby coin, you can gobby production, you can even gobby MI's if the chapter you're starting in allows it. Otherwise, you start with 12cp and what your skills allow for via the rules.
There is only one way to circumvent the 'starting treasure' rule: pull it from treasure policy for the weekend.
One thing to keep in mind is that we *do* often encourage new players to have a background which interacts with other people in the game, if they know those other players out of game, to help them integrate into the game better. I don't have a problem with them thus talking character-to-character about things like sharing spellbook memorization or working together to help their production at logistics - as that's something that *any* character can do.
Bottom line, any individual character gets only what's outlined in the rulebook to start with unless Plot decrees that the character has some reason to be given more or less based on their background (which as noted above can open big cans of worms and is generally to be avoided). That said, characters always have freedom to talk and coordinate among themselves between games, and trying to clamp down on that seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth. That's a player-level thing, not a chapter-level thing, if that makes sense.
-Bryan
Bottom line, any individual character gets only what's outlined in the rulebook to start with unless Plot decrees that the character has some reason to be given more or less based on their background (which as noted above can open big cans of worms and is generally to be avoided). That said, characters always have freedom to talk and coordinate among themselves between games, and trying to clamp down on that seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth. That's a player-level thing, not a chapter-level thing, if that makes sense.
-Bryan
I think we're losing sight of the prize, here. (I probably contributed to it by walking down the slippery slope.) We're not talking about changing what characters get when they're coming into game, or in fact anything that requires any interaction from staff. The question at hand is only: Can new characters coordinate with their groups about production before game on, something existing characters can freely do? It's not a slippery slope, because it's the same thing that existing characters can do. It's not against the spirit of the new character rules, because there are so many ways that doesn't apply to most characters. It's not against the letter of the rules, because there is no rule, express or implied, that characters cannot exchange things when not currently playing an Official Alliance Event. As Bryan said, trying to clamp down on that seems like a lot of trouble for something that doesn't actually help the game. For all those reasons, I continue to see no problem with it.
Alavatar
Baron
Whether or not it is game breaking or fair is irrelevant. New characters can enter game for the first time only with their starting equipment, money from Craftsman, and GS purchases (Edit to add) from a Logistics standpoint. If the character's other pair of pants is overflowing with gold back in their cabin for some reason that is a situation not easily controlled (this is an honor system to a degree), but checking in and coming into game for the first time is controllable.(/edit)
There have been other similar situations where a chapter on one coast interpreted a rule one way thinking it is not a problem only to have the other coast say "that's wrong because I wrote the rule and I know the intent" thus leading to chastising and wrist slapping. This topic is an area that can be grey, but I am going to say it is black and white because I do not want us getting into trouble with the powers that be.
That is Seattle Logistics stance. You may get a different response from other chapters. In fact, I have created a post in the National Staff forums asking other chapters their opinion on this topic.
There have been other similar situations where a chapter on one coast interpreted a rule one way thinking it is not a problem only to have the other coast say "that's wrong because I wrote the rule and I know the intent" thus leading to chastising and wrist slapping. This topic is an area that can be grey, but I am going to say it is black and white because I do not want us getting into trouble with the powers that be.
That is Seattle Logistics stance. You may get a different response from other chapters. In fact, I have created a post in the National Staff forums asking other chapters their opinion on this topic.