NPCs and weapons

K

Kauss

Fighter
I have noticed that often when an NPC picks a weapon, they often go for two of them. On top of that, they will often try to go for a max length short sword, and max length long sword mix. It has become so common that both the players and NPCs have come to expect this. What I want to know is why? I know I often try to send my NPCs out with one weapon, and yet I will catch them trying to get two, or wanting to substitute weapons for claws, when the claws are not the length that they like.
Now I know some of the NPCs are very good about this, and I thank them. And some of the monsters should have 2 weapons. But not all monsters need to be two fisted fighters, and just because you are using dagger length claws, does not mean that is a problem. Keep in mind that scaling is the job of who ever is running the monsters, and if you use the wrong number, or kind, of weapons, you will throw off the scaling.
So, what are some other views on this topic?
 
Big critter = big weapons
Little critters = little weapons
Special NPCs = whatever suits that NPC

My two coppers.
 
to my knowledge most of the monster cards i deal with say the type of weapon that the monster can weild. if you want for the next event i can pay more attention to the weapons going out. if its a problem, i am willing to look into this for the June event. however i have never played myself and i usualy trust my NPCs to know what they are looking at when i hand them a monster card. but if its a problem i will handel it. i was not aware that it was.

~Anna~
 
It's not necessarily that there is anything being done incorrectly by moster camp, or even by the NPC's. It is simply a matter of the NPC's attempting to gain every advantage they can over the PC's. NPC's need to remember that they should arm themselves appropriately for the monsters and/or characters they are playing, not just to make the most effective kill. A troll might not use his claws in favor of a big smasher or a great sword, but would they really go for the long/short combo? And Kobolds? Come on. A long sword would eb a great sword to them. Maybe short sword/dagger would be more appropriate.

To add to this, I would also say that I have seen an annoying tendency (not just in Seattle, but Oregon as well) for the PC's to RP their monster's shambling/mindless gait until combat... then they are hell with a sword! Moving, jumping, running, taunting! If it says mindless, be mindless. I think, perhaps, it is time once again to have a sit-down with the current NPC guild. It's been a while.
 
Zwingll said:
to my knowledge most of the monster cards i deal with say the type of weapon that the monster can weild. if you want for the next event i can pay more attention to the weapons going out. if its a problem, i am willing to look into this for the June event. however i have never played myself and i usualy trust my NPCs to know what they are looking at when i hand them a monster card. but if its a problem i will handel it. i was not aware that it was.

~Anna~
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On the monster card it really only adresses type of weapon, so it will say body, or weapon, or any. And sometimes details on if it can be one handed or two. I myself have been putting notes on the bottom of some cards about some creatures who may only use one, one handed weapon at a time. But as dave said, its not a card issue, its the NPCs picking the best weapon. Compare NPCs to PCs and you will see that a lot of PCs have one weapon at a time, becouse it costs a lot to get two (Not saying we dont have our share of 2 fisted fighters). However most of the NPCs will (if we have enuf weapons) got for 2 weapons whenever they can.
 
personally, when NPCing I go for long sword/short sword, simply because it is what I fight best with, and enjoy fighting with the most. My PC spent the 15 build required to use the same, and I spent my time balancing a long sword to be best used with a short sword for these purposes, so of course that is going to be the choice!
Though I must say that if the monster calls for a different flavour, I'll mix it in (two-handers with undead or anything clumsy is great fun)
At the oregon event, I NPCed for a small amount of time as an undead...being mindless is fun when you can keep swinging "0 normal" after being weaknessed and not care ^^ (just had to add that in context to the comment on shambling thingies)
 
My whole problem is that not only are NPC's choosing the best weapons, but also that even the weakest and stupidest monster is a dynamo with said weapons.

I do applaud people who can and do practice their freetime to be the best darndest boffer fighter they can be. However, I get annoyed when a monster doesnt fight like one would think it would. I have seen blobs and oozes that run, shambling zombies that strike as fast as lightning, kobolds who are as dumb as a rock but tool you with a weapon, and large lumbering creatures that dodge blows with mmch grace and agility.

Normally I wouldnt have a problem with this. However, lately it has been seeming like I have been fighting the same creatures that just have different abilities.

I guess what Im saying is that: not only would it seem more appropriate for NPC's to switch up what kinds of weapons they use, but also the style in which they fight. It would give a way for some of those who are lesser equiped an actual chance to fight back, rather than have those who are able to commit their starting build to gain the privelege of what NPC's can gain for free.
 
Going by the precedent set by the racial ability claw, shouldn't npc's using body weaponry be required to have florentine (for dagger length) or two weapon fighting (for short sword length) in order to wield two body weapons? And shouldn't any other NPC be required to have one of those skills or style mastery in order to wield two weapons?
 
Tharval said:
Going by the precedent set by the racial ability claw, shouldn't npc's using body weaponry be required to have florentine (for dagger length) or two weapon fighting (for short sword length) in order to wield two body weapons? And shouldn't any other NPC be required to have one of those skills or style mastery in order to wield two weapons?
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Yes, you are correct.
 
Tharval said:
Going by the precedent set by the racial ability claw, shouldn't npc's using body weaponry be required to have florentine (for dagger length) or two weapon fighting (for short sword length) in order to wield two body weapons? And shouldn't any other NPC be required to have one of those skills or style mastery in order two wield two weapons?
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Well, with NPCs build as charicters, yes, they need style master of the like to use 2 weapons. However monsters are made with options like body weapon (one hand) body weapon (2 hand) body weapon (any) And it says the same thing about normal weapons as well. So its presumed that unless its noted otherwise, the weakest monster who can use a one handed weapon, can use 2. However a lot of NPCs are of the view that if they can use two weapons, they will. Hence why we have run into mighty kobolt fighters (like with no stringth and less than 10 body) who will have 2 shortswords.
To be honest, the NPC shouldnt use 2 weapons unless a skill is in the skill section saying they could use 2 weapons.
So in short, you are right:)
 
(Speaking as an NPC here)
I think the main reason is the one noted above of favored weapons for a given person -- some people are just used to a given weapon or combination of weapons, and therefore instinctively grab the appropriate set. For others, especially new NPCs who may not have fought much before, it's natural to get as much protection as they can from the more experienced PCs -- I know that I would often take two weapons for this reason when I started NPCing. I think the issue is being addressed, though, since I am seeing more and more notes on monster cards regarding fighting styles and I am hearing more reminders to play your monster's intelligence when leaving monster camp.

Of course, in some cases remember that the monster may not be quite as dumb as you think. That might be a regular kobold walking so quietly with those two weapons, but on the other hand it could be a level 10 kobold rogue... :D
 
Archon said:
(Speaking as an NPC here)

Of course, in some cases remember that the monster may not be quite as dumb as you think. That might be a regular kobold walking so quietly with those two weapons, but on the other hand it could be a level 10 kobold rogue... :D
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However just becouse he/she is a 10th level kobold rogue, doesnt mean they have two weapon skills. There are a number of other cool skills to get.:)
 
Archon said:
(Speaking as an NPC here)
I think the main reason is the one noted above of favored weapons for a given person -- some people are just used to a given weapon or combination of weapons, and therefore instinctively grab the appropriate set.
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I hope I am not being terribly bold with this, but here goes.
I've NPCed a good share of my own. In my own opinion on this, if I wanted to play or use what I enjoy, I'd be fopping around as Izlude. That is what I like to do, and I can do whatever I choose with him, because he is MY character.
However, NPCs are put into a role where they are playing someone elses characters. They (as NPCs) belong to the plot member who is sending them out and therefore should act acordingly to that monster. Especially if the plot member requests it.

On the other side, I can see why you would want to go for the best weapon combo you could get. I mean, it often times feels like that is the only way to give the PCs a challenge, right? Wrong. You are playing a creature with abilities that make it challenging. Like said before, a Kobold can be just as annoying with a dagger, as apposed to two swords... Point is, Kobolds arent supposed to be great fighters (unless plot says so).
On the other hand, a great lich doesnt need two swords to scare the living crap out of someone.

So here is my point: Why do you try and justify using YOUR best weapon set up for monsters that are there for various purposes? Not all of the monsters that go out should scare people who are level 10. I mean, I've actually ran from a group of 4 kobolds before cause of a certain un-named person who was playing one! He rolled, jumped, dodged, and whipped like no-ones business and made Kobolds look intimidating. Why? Because its what he enjoyed.

I say this- If you want to play "what you like" play your PC. I just dont see why it has to be a war against the PCs everytime a crunchy goes out. I had fun being an undead mindless hunk of flesh. Wouldnt anyone agree with me that everyone gets more out of watching a zombie pound away at a door trying to get at the PCs inside, while they sneak out the back door? (even though the NPC knows it OOG, DOESNT mean they have to dive for it IG)


Theres my 2 copper, 5 silver, 1 gold...
~Sean
 
To flip some coins, not because I support any particular side of it, let me add some comments:

If an NPC is using a skillset or combination of weapons that does not match their monster and/or character card, they are cheating, plain and simple. Call them on it, if you think it needs to be, and, worst case, call a marshal on it.

NPCs are not plot slaves. They pay money in order to do something that they enjoy. Sometimes that means simply having a good fight, and pushing themselves to their limits. Being a mindless git swinging once every ten seconds and otherwise getting wailed on by others is only fun for so long. They pay less money because they can't keep the loot, and because they have a limited range of choice in the direction they take the game.

Zombies do not have "fights slowly, can't run" on their card. Don't expect that they will. Just look at Dawn of the Dead for an example of slow moving, fast combat zombies.

Big numbers and spellstrikes do not require big swings. Tapping while calling "Spellstrike Death" has almost the exact same result as pulling back and swinging hell-bent for leather. The only difference is how mad I'm gonna get taking it.

Stupid does not mean can't fight. (Think Gurv, although, amusingly enough, really isn't stupid...)

Let the wookie win.
 
jpariury said:
To flip some coins, not because I support any particular side of it, let me add some comments:

If an NPC is using a skillset or combination of weapons that does not match their monster and/or character card, they are cheating, plain and simple. Call them on it, if you think it needs to be, and, worst case, call a marshal on it.

NPCs are not plot slaves. They pay money in order to do something that they enjoy. Sometimes that means simply having a good fight, and pushing themselves to their limits. Being a mindless git swinging once every ten seconds and otherwise getting wailed on by others is only fun for so long. They pay less money because they can't keep the loot, and because they have a limited range of choice in the direction they take the game.

Zombies do not have "fights slowly, can't run" on their card. Don't expect that they will. Just look at Dawn of the Dead for an example of slow moving, fast combat zombies.

Big numbers and spellstrikes do not require big swings. Tapping while calling "Spellstrike Death" has almost the exact same result as pulling back and swinging hell-bent for leather. The only difference is how mad I'm gonna get taking it.

Stupid does not mean can't fight. (Think Gurv, although, amusingly enough, really isn't stupid...)

Let the wookie win.
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The problem isnt some monsters being faster than you might thing they would be, its more that the same NPCs will play a monster the same way. Case in point, I have seen an NPC who is a fast and ooc skilled ooze with 2 weapons. Later he played a fast and ooc skilled gnoll with 2 weapons. Sometime later, I saw him as a fast and ooc skilled zombie with, guess what, 2 weapons. In most cases the same 2 weapons.
I know for me, I am just making more notes on the monster cards as to how I think the monster should move and be armed. aka can only use one weapon, can not run. Shambles.. ect..

To address this issue sepretly :
Big numbers and spellstrikes do not require big swings. Tapping while calling "Spellstrike Death" has almost the exact same result as pulling back and swinging hell-bent for leather. The only difference is how mad I'm gonna get taking it.
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Actally, it makes a lot of diffrence when the monster is better armed than planed. When I make a monster, and then scale things for the range I am looking for, I often make notes on the monster card(and sometimes verbal notes when its a situational matter) that limit, or imporove its abilitys becouse of this problem. I have found that tho something with spellstrike death (for example)and one dagger claw is nasty, that same monster with a two handed sword is even nastyer. So the problem is that the scalling is off, becouse the monster is fighting much better than its stats were intended to.
Personly I am just going to make sure the notes on the monster card are better detailed so that I dont have to worry about it anymore. But this also means I will (In my gamedays) be taking a much closer look at weapon and claw issues of the NPCs.
 
jpariury said:
Zombies do not have "fights slowly, can't run" on their card. Don't expect that they will.
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Zombies actually do have "Cannot defend itself from attacks. May not run." on their card. But very few others are limited at all in movement.

One of the main issues here is that very few NPCs are given abilities to really make them have any bang. If I want to survive with 10 body swinging 2s I NEED two weapons. Plus any of the newer NPCs that go up against any of the better fighters who are not only very skilled but have 25th level character stats to back them up will get creamed and it's just no fun. Those NPCs that have serious stats usually have a weapon combo to back them up.

Another point is that normally every NPC can't find two long weapons and it's really unsafe to fight with two claws. Even the most skilled fighters need to charge when fighting with double claws. In general I thing that two claws should be shortsword length claws. Additionally most of the NPC's weapons are PVC and not the ultra light blades weilded by PCs. If I come up to Cymryc with two pvc weapons he really only needs one ultra light to flay me alive. Now I believe that certain monsters should only carry one weapon but in general in order to keep the fight entertaining for PCs there needs to be two. I personally noticed a major difference in the early Oregon games where the highest level was 8th. Every one of my NPCs was going out with two weapons and only one of the PCs could use two... So I limited it down a good bit. But in a game where people are average level 15 the choice not to have two weapons or sword and board is really their own choice and it's their loss if they end up outgunned.

I do however agree that things need to fight like the moster they are playing. The best time NPCing a monster I had was when I was a snake with a 2 handed claw. I simply waited until I had an opportune strike then came down swiftly and hit my target. Hissing and curving all the time... It wasn't only fun but it was a style I'd never have fought otherwise.

Marc
 
Izlude_Oranes said:
So here is my point: Why do you try and justify using YOUR best weapon set up for monsters that are there for various purposes? Not all of the monsters that go out should scare people who are level 10.
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I certainly understand that point and agree with it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that NPCs shouldn't choose appropriate weapons and fighting styles. I'm just saying that most of the people who do choose the wrong weapons or fight too well are probably not doing it intentionally or are not aware that it is a bad thing due to lack of experience, which means that just explaining the issue (especially to new people) should lead to improvements in that area, so hopefully you'll be seeing less of that in future events. Of course, I can't speak for all NPCs when I say that.
 
One of the main issues here is that very few NPCs are given abilities to really make them have any bang. If I want to survive with 10 body swinging 2s I NEED two weapons. Plus any of the newer NPCs that go up against any of the better fighters who are not only very skilled but have 25th level character stats to back them up will get creamed and it's just no fun. Those NPCs that have serious stats usually have a weapon combo to back them up.
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I think the point is, if your a 10 body 2 normal monster, your not supposed to have bang. Your a weak crunchy, that anyone is supposed to be able to take in a fair fight, hence the lack of skills like slay, and 2 weapon fighting.
Another point is that normally every NPC can't find two long weapons and it's really unsafe to fight with two claws. Even the most skilled fighters need to charge when fighting with double claws.
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You know, I just cant agree. I do know that many people when they fight in the "hell bent for leather" style they seem to have a charging problem with short weapons, but I think thats more a style problem than a problem with the claws themselves. I think the NPCs dont want to have to give ground and get beaton up becouse they have short weapons, so they try to use the faster more brutal styles, and, of course, end up charging. I know when I play a monster with 1 or 2 claws, I get my rear handed to me, becouse I am using dagger lingth claws vs longer weapons. Just like the card tells me to, just like the monster was intended.
 
Kauss said:
I have noticed that often when an NPC picks a weapon, they often go for two of them. On top of that, they will often try to go for a max length short sword, and max length long sword mix. It has become so common that both the players and NPCs have come to expect this. What I want to know is why? I know I often try to send my NPCs out with one weapon, and yet I will catch them trying to get two, or wanting to substitute weapons for claws, when the claws are not the length that they like.
Now I know some of the NPCs are very good about this, and I thank them. And some of the monsters should have 2 weapons. But not all monsters need to be two fisted fighters, and just because you are using dagger length claws, does not mean that is a problem. Keep in mind that scaling is the job of who ever is running the monsters, and if you use the wrong number, or kind, of weapons, you will throw off the scaling.
So, what are some other views on this topic?
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I believe that trend simply reflects on the lack of experience of most NPCs. Look at it through the eyes of the typical noob. You are presented with a choice of weapons. For lack of anything better, you might as well go for the longest ones. Now, it so happens that there is a rule against two longswords, so they go for the max length allowed. Face it, unless you are good, having short daggers is a disadvantage. It takes practice to use them effectively. Also, fighting with only one weapon is somewhat of a disadvantage as well. Personally, fencing is my weakest form, because I can only do one thing at a time. If I attack, I leave myself open. If I try to block, I'm not attacking. It feels wierd to have that other hand not doing anything.

Personally, I like wielding a longsword while covering myself with my big, evil-looking kite shield, or picking up a bastard sword and unleashing some of my Kendo whoop ***. Greatswords are fun too, even though I'm terrible with them against anyone that knows how to block and charge.
 
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