Odd Power Curve

Hey. Heeeeeeeey.

We've gone from a question on new builds and magic item utilization to a back and forth on loot distro philosophy.

Focus. Focuuuuus.

Also, Mike, I didn't see your PS before, but I do believe that this is the case, going from timed expiration to number of activations.

I appreciate the refocusing and the answer to a question. If magic items durations are based on total logistics periods during which they are present, then the problem, in my opinion is much less frustrating. It still creates a "power dip" when trade-ins are made (in addition to losing good one-shots skills, you also lose good one-shot magic item usage), but at least you aren't burning away your magic item while it is useless to you.

In my opinion, this mechanic will be slightly frustrating to players who experience that "power dip" but should be enjoyable enough at other times to make up for it. I still encourage the playtest rules writers to brainstorm something that minimizes this loss (possibly something like allowing a number of uses of these magic items per day equal to profs / backstabs before costing crit attacks / back attacks ... which could be totally overpowered as far as I know ... just brainstorming).

-MS
 
I think you will see most people who are taking advantage of the magic items will choose to not trade in for a prof/stab immediately after having enough.

I agree. But that means that certain fighters and rogues effectively "stall" in character growth because magic items force a delay in build expenditure for them that isn't forced on scholars. I've said it before that it isn't a major issue in my mind, but it is a quality of life issue that is predictable and should be cleaned up if there is a way to do so without making the system worse. There might not (the system is reasonably elegant), but it is worth the brainpower to make that determination, in my opinion.

-MS
 
I agree. But that means that certain fighters and rogues effectively "stall" in character growth because magic items force a delay in build expenditure for them that isn't forced on scholars. I've said it before that it isn't a major issue in my mind, but it is a quality of life issue that is predictable and should be cleaned up if there is a way to do so without making the system worse. There might not (the system is reasonably elegant), but it is worth the brainpower to make that determination, in my opinion.

-MS

It is kind of a double whammy. Fighters and rogues have to spend more build for profs/backstabs as they increase in level and they have to set aside crit attacks or back attacks to fuel some items. Meanwhile scholars always pay the same price for their spells and don't have to use build to power their items.

Tying this back into the (kind of but not really) off topic discussion of mid level fighters having a hard time getting magic items... In the current system it is true that a low or mid level fighter without a big magic sword (actually cloaks and banes and activate protectives/purify/heals are more important IMO) will often have a tough time getting a piece of the big bad. Maybe the new rules are supposed to fix that by making more monsters more accessible to more players?

If so, do we want to make it easier for lower level fighters to get in on the action while making it harder for them to use their items? Also, as we take away the cloaks and activates that all fighters need to stay on the big bad, are we really making more monsters more accessible to more people?

Please note that I am not pretending to know anything about anything. I am trying to ask questions about the intent of the new rules so that we can measure how well things are working when we playtest.
 
I think part of the problem is you keep assuming that fighters and rogues are supposed to build the same as they ever have, when it's pretty clear mathematically that the new system opens up creation pathways. As it is now, you buy profs or stabs, because that's the most bang for your buck. The new system is making that style of play only an option, and not even necessarily the best option. Unlimited damage sources are going down on both sides of the fence. Monster hit points are supposed to also be going down.

Taking down a big bad is going to be much more about working together to land your big blows and spells rather than just mobbing the NPC with 5 guys swinging 20's.

Finesse and tactics rather than brute force.
 
James Trotta said:
It is kind of a double whammy. Fighters and rogues have to spend more build for profs/backstabs as they increase in level and they have to set aside crit attacks or back attacks to fuel some items. Meanwhile scholars always pay the same price for their spells and don't have to use build to power their items.
This is true, but Scholars of either school will eventually run out of damage or healing, whereas a Fighter or Rogue can always swing reasonable damage as long as they have a weapon. A Scholar on their own isn't going to be able to take on more than a few level-appropriate NPCs before they start running out of resources to combat them; they rely on Fighters and Rogues to output consistent damage and 'tank' (so to speak) for them to be truly effective over the course of an entire day.

James Trotta said:
Tying this back into the (kind of but not really) off topic discussion of mid level fighters having a hard time getting magic items... In the current system it is true that a low or mid level fighter without a big magic sword (actually cloaks and banes and activate protectives/purify/heals are more important IMO) will often have a tough time getting a piece of the big bad. Maybe the new rules are supposed to fix that by making more monsters more accessible to more players?
It's my understanding that one of the goals of reducing the consistent damage output of Fighters and Rogues was to curb the body bloat currently affecting some chapters with a lot of high-level PCs with tons of Profs/Backstabs; if a third of your player base (for example) is swinging for 20 or more, a big battle requires either a) giving the monsters such an insane amount of body that it becomes impossible for the NPC to keep track of how much they've lost and anyone not swinging at least 10-15 is doing so little overall damage that they're relegated to fighting the weakest ones just so they feel even the slightest bit useful, or b) giving the monsters so many defenses and protectives that only high-level PCs are going to have the resources to burn through them all and again leaving the low- to mid-level PCs stuck fighting only the weakest ones.

Mods and lairs seemingly face a similar problem, but because you can set whether a mod or lair is for low-, mid-, or high-level PCs, you can adjust your monsters accordingly a little more easily.

James Trotta said:
If so, do we want to make it easier for lower level fighters to get in on the action while making it harder for them to use their items? Also, as we take away the cloaks and activates that all fighters need to stay on the big bad, are we really making more monsters more accessible to more people?
I would say yes in the grand scheme of things, at least on paper, for 2 reasons:

1) Minimizing the damage gap between mid- and high-level players should allow for overall 'weaker' big bad NPCs that mid-level players can damage in a meaningful way, either because they have the Profs/Backstabs to be somewhat on par with the high-level PCs, or because they can burn Critical/Back Attacks to increase their damage or use MIs. Ideally, you'll have a good mix of people going full Prof/Backstab, people stacking Critical/Back Attacks, and people sitting somewhere in the middle, because each of those build paths is useful in different ways, and the more options you have as a group, the better off you'll be. Forcing people to make the choice between overall consistent damage or burst damage and MI use encourages a broader build style among players, as well as reducing NPC body bloat overall, and the combination of the two should make low- and mid-level Fighter and Rogues feel like they contributed significantly in the larger battles.

2) By removing Cloaks and Banes, you end up forcing Fighters and Rogues into the situation where they are reliant on Celestial and Earth casters to keep them up and fighting (whether through crowd control, protective spells, or healing), and thus you increase everyone's overall contribution to any battle of any size they partake in. Low- and mid-level PCs are swinging about as much as the high-level PCs (give or take 2-6 damage), and thus they contribute more overall to the big fights fight, including taking the place of a high-level PC while they get healed/refit/cured without suffering such a significant drop in damage during that time.

Whether this works in practice, I have no personal experience, as I haven't gone to a playtest yet, but other people in my chapter (Calgary) who have done playtesting have indicated that at mid- to high-levels there is a drastic increase in cooperation between players. (To my knowledge, we have not run a low-level playtest yet, as I haven't heard anything about one.)
 
Yeah, that's fair. For what it's worth, we talked about adding a scholar equivalent of the prof/stab to making balancing more obvious and opted not to for a handful of reasons.
 
Part of the reason I decided to discuss this one online is because the potential problem is one that is actually quite difficult to playtest. Playtesting a specific rule is usually easy (you just set up scenarios). Playtesting how a rule interacts with build expenditures is more difficult. That is the kind of thing that takes seasons to really understand. You can try to "fast forward" and do multiple level ups (presumably with magic item hand outs) during a playtest, but that doesn't work remarkably well.

It may seem otherwise, but I'm not criticizing the increased cost of profs / backstabs or the increased utility of one-shot skills (I'm blase to the first one and really fond of the second). I just don't like the mild roller coaster power curve. In my opinion, build expenditures should always improve character power levels or keep them approximately equal. I think, ignoring magic items, trading in crits / BAs for a prof / backstab is basically a plateau point in character development (maybe a mild decrease, but not too significant). However, when you take into account magic items (especially at higher levels), it suddenly becomes a significant decrease in power level, and that seems counterintuitive and likely to really frustrate a portion of the player base.

Now, because I like to offer positive suggestions, here is some pure brainstorming.

What if we treat other one-shot rogue and fighter abilities like crit attacks or back attacks for the purpose of magic items? This is similar (in theory) to the rule that allows you to memorize lower level spells in higher level slots. Basically, allow a fighter to spend a slay or a disarm as if it were a critical attack in order to power a magic item. This helps prevent magic items from "going inert" at the trade-in period and shouldn't be overpowered because, in general, those one-shots have better uses and are limited in how many can be bought.

-MS
 
I could see it, but it would represent a significant amount of power creep in that, all other things being equal, most of the fighter/rogue skills are 2 point rather than 3 point like crit attack /back attack.
 
True, but I can't see it causing a huge amount of power creep, since the build spent in fighter/rogue skills prerequisite places a soft cap on the number you can buy.
 
I've always seen the difference between profs and other skills a bit differently.

Melee fighters tend to buy increases in the RATE of damage dealt, while Scholars tend to purchase Additional Damage that can be dealt, both sides have their pluses and minuses, but it's not really a direct comparison.

Maximum burst damage, I expect will still be the realm of fighters and rogues (+10 from crits from the fight, plus slay damage that can go higher than any non-elemental burst effect), This is what causes the death donut, but with the needed expense of crit attacks it should likely be more varied of who is in that donut, as by level 4 you could swing for 10s for a fight once a day. Instead of needing to crest level 14/15 for the same (exclusive of magic items of course)

Spells are something I'm very interested in seeing the play test data on, especially the effect of Meditate on long range artillery casting. I'm not sure if it will be a thing, but it could.
 
I could see it, but it would represent a significant amount of power creep in that, all other things being equal, most of the fighter/rogue skills are 2 point rather than 3 point like crit attack /back attack.

I'll admit, I completely forgot to look at the new build chart before making this suggestion. I was thinking about the old chart where only Disarm and Evade were 2 build or fewer.

So, in fairness to your point, I'll take a closer look at what I suggested.

First, Improved Slay / Assassinate, Wear Extra Armor, and Hearty don't matter. They aren't once per day abilities.

Slay / Assassinate - 1 per 30 bp - Should be fine given you can only buy one every 3 levels and you are actually giving up a darn good ability to use the magic item (better than a +1/+2 for ten minutes)

Fast Refit - If you are buying these just to power magic items, you are actually spending 5 build (4 as a dwarf), because each one requires a matching level of Blacksmith

Disarm - 1 per 15 bp - Because of the change to how this ability works (hit a shield, disarm the shield), I expect its utility just jumped significantly. I think this is a balanced trade-off

Waylay - This is the main potential abuse skill. For someone buying it purely to power magic items, there is no downside (no bp limit, no pre-reqs, etc.). For those not abusing it, I actually like that it gives an alternate use when waylay isn't an option (which is all too often... stupid undead)

Counteract - 1 per 10 bp - A minor potential abuse skill, but I think it has such value as a skill that I'd be dumbfounded if anyone bought it purely for magic item powering, rather than its main benefit

Intercept - 1 per 10 bp - Besides Waylay, the other major skill likely to be used to power magic items. Unlike Waylay, this one is limited by build total.


Unless I missed something, it looks like fighter and rogue each have one skill that could be used to take advantage of the system (rogue more than fighter). However, I'd be surprised if any fighter invested too heavily in Intercept without actually wanting the skill, because it basically becomes dead weight if you don't want the skill and ever find yourself without magic items (magic items do expire and can be lost). The rogue case is trickier because the skill doesn't become dead weight if you run out of magic items (except on undead weekends).

Hmm....
I'm leaning towards it being an acceptable avenue for abuse, since I find the abuse cases mostly unlikely, but I'm definitely mulling it over.

-MS
 
I think part of the problem is you keep assuming that fighters and rogues are supposed to build the same as they ever have, when it's pretty clear mathematically that the new system opens up creation pathways. As it is now, you buy profs or stabs, because that's the most bang for your buck. The new system is making that style of play only an option, and not even necessarily the best option. Unlimited damage sources are going down on both sides of the fence. Monster hit points are supposed to also be going down.

Taking down a big bad is going to be much more about working together to land your big blows and spells rather than just mobbing the NPC with 5 guys swinging 20's.

Finesse and tactics rather than brute force.

I agree with this, but I think the brute force will still be there, in the form of the C caster instead of the fighter now, especially if HP are less but spell dmg is not.
 
Edit: the below statement is wrong, expanded enchantment was removed.

The main point people seem to be forgetting is that these "caster" magic items that require no skills to use can be used by a fighter. My character is a tank fighter and I used an item with several cure lights constantly. On the other hand, unless a scholar buys crit attacks and back attacks to power the other items, they can't be used at all. Though high magic gives cloaks, they lose protectives as well.
 
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The main point people seem to be forgetting is that these "caster" magic items that require no skills to use can be used by a fighter. My character is a tank fighter and I used an item with several cure lights constantly. On the other hand, unless a scholar buys crit attacks and back attacks to power the other items, they can't be used at all. Though high magic gives cloaks, they lose protectives as well.

Please don't take this snidely. I'm trying to work out phrasing, but I think it will sound rude when it isn't intended to be.

The reason I believe most of us haven't discussed that point is because, according to the playtest materials, those type of magic items are going away. The only way to have a "pocket caster" now (as far as I can tell) is to either be able to cast from scrolls (something that costs build and production points), use potions (production points and slow / limited), or to spell store a magic item with a spell at the beginning of the weekend (which costs the build of a player and only lasts until the end of the weekend). The one / day items we are used to are basically disappearing across the board. The only ones that still exist, are like this type, costing the use of a one / day build skills to activate. Scholars have similar ones that cost active spells (like the spell store items).

-MS
 
Huh, I just realized that's what expanded enchantment is. Again in a non sarcastic way, I'm sorry for being a fighter ignorant of rituals and how my magic items were made. I was wrong!
 
As a rouge now and will be changing to fighter when the change happens. I look to be doing 4 profs with 4 Crits on the side for magic items. I use a bow and with adding vorpals I'll be a good size fighter with it. Being only level 13 I'll be up there with the 30 level fighters. As I am now with magic and serious vorpals I'm a top level fighter as a rouge. I love being the do all and pocket caster and being looked as a needed company when going on high scaled mods. But I want a level playing field and work with other players to help.
I may look at only doing 3 profs with 11 Crits and be that one time a day bad a**. My magic items will be now a mix of things to loan out to help when I'm adventuring.
This new play will make it so pc's will have to work together and plan. Which I know isn't some peoples forte.
In all I'm totally fine spending skills to make magic work if I'm a fighter. I'm not a spell caster so I have to give up something so not to be a pocket caster.
 
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