Paralyze and Death Curse functionality

Tantarus

Tantarus

Knight
For reference "Death was moved from Gift to Curse . Note that this means Death will affect many more creature types than it affects today, expanding its use and desirability (to balance out the change in utility from Life/Death reversability)."

As far as I can tell the exceptions for what Paralysis works on didn't change. Making it the only curse that does not work on Undead/elementals/etc. Is there a reason for this? If we are sacrificing flavor for functionality and universal effects. Why not give Paralysis the same treatment as Death was given to bring it in line with all other curse spells? Was this just an oversight or perhaps there is a reason that is not apparent or I don't understand?
 
Paralysis is being balanced against Confine. Lots of creatures can rip from binding or are immune to binding. Very few creatures are immune to curse (I can think of exactly one in the base database). By giving immunity to paralysis to a specific conceptual group of creatures, the two spells are roughly equivalent in effectiveness.

-MS
 
Paralysis is a higher level spell then confine. Why should they be balanced against each other? One is binding, one is curse.

And it is far more then a specific group of creatures it is all creatures without a metabolism, Elementals, Undead, Constructs, so and so.

If the goal of 2.0 is to streamline the system, why have 1 curse of 5 that has its own exceptions? Isn't the whole idea of 2.0 to remove that kinda thing?
 
I said roughly equivalent. Paralysis is only one level higher than Confine. Thus, Paralysis should only be slightly better than Confine. If the only creatures immune to it are those immune to curse, it is a LOT better than Confine.

Also, while I agree that there are a lot of groups of creatures that don't have metabolisms, only one (Undead) is a significant group. Elementals and Constructs are uncommon monster types. Monsters with the ability to rip out of binding, including Confines, are at least as common, if not more common than those groups combined and that doesn't include monsters that are simply immune to Binding.

You do make a good point that Paralysis becomes an exception and these rules were trying to remove exceptions. I agree that I can't think of any other effect that is treated this way, except in specific one-off cases.

Also, I will acknowledge that the means of removing a Paralysis got easier in this rules edition, though I suspect Release will still be memorized more commonly than Cleanse.

Arguably, the real problem is that Confine is basically identical to Web, but is now permanently 2 levels higher (yeah, I know it always existed, but previously existed in a game that also included Web). As a result, there is very little room between level 7 Confine and level 9 Prison (which become the two spells that Paralysis gets compared to). Paralysis is only slightly worse than Prison (assuming only curse immunity affects it) and is much better than Confine, which suggests Confine is too high a level. And if Confine is definitely staying at level 7 (I'm pretty sure it is), then Confine really needs some anchor to prevent the step from level 7 to level 8 from being so drastic.

-MS
 
As far as Paralysis vs. Confine, Paralysis is stronger in that you cannot fix it on yourself. I tend to agree that there are a lot of creatures that are inherently immune to Paralysis, enough so that the spell is very hit or miss.

Mike, I would put forward that arguing about monster groups being significant or not has no place in a rules discussion since the frequency of encountering various monster types is entirely dependent on local plot.
 
I also realized that Release can be turned into a scroll or a potion, while Cleanse can only be turned into a potion. This should have a reasonably significant effect on the availability of the cure for each effect.

-MS
 
I disagree with the notion that Paralysis is better than Confine based on what I have seen actually memorized. I see Confine frequently memorized; even if creatures can rip free they are vulnerable while ripping which adds strategy to combating those creatures. I see Paralysis rarely memorized because it vies for the same level as Cure Mortal Wounds and Purify, two spells often considered superior, and the hit or miss effect of Paralysis actually taking effect makes it's value questionable; I only see it memorized when the player-base is confident they will be encountering creatures not immune to Paralysis.

Personally, I think Paralysis should not be limited to affecting creatures with metabolism. I suspect that is a hold-over for when specific effects were listed for immunity and people thought it thematically appropriate since Paralysis could also be made into a gas. I think the magic and poison versions could easily be thematically separated conceptually by arguing one affects limbs magically and the other affects it through the nervous system, thus creatures immune to Poison would still be immune to Poison Paralysis, but not Spell Paralysis.
 
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Confine is -easily- more useful than Paralysis. For three seconds, you're taking PTDs. I can use Binds/Pins to strip your Bindomancy counters. Rarely is anything immune to Binding.

In order for me to strip Curse counters, I have to rely on you burning them on Weakness (which isn't a KO-effect, and many creatures are willing to eat the debuff), mem Silence over Spell Shield (haha, no), or burn them on Destruction (which is a gamble). Note that I'm wasting 5th and 8th level slots on this offense if it doesn't take, which are two of the most valuable slots to an E Caster, arguably the -most- valuable, especially to spell slots that can't be augmented via scrolls.

I mean, I've gone on record saying that the best spell in the game is Purify, hands down.

Oh, that's the other thing. With Read Magic, I can augment Bindomancy offense with Pin/Bind scrolls. Throw in a single 1st level C Slot, and I'm adding Web to that. While I can sorta do that with Alchemy, it's a bigger buy-in, and I have to rely on the target having a metabolism.

Curse is powerful, sure, but it's too unreliable, and only a -single- spell is an actual KO. Silence can stop a caster that doesn't have a High Magic removal method, but it ain't stopping a fighter from beating you down.

That being said, I expect Weakness to be more powerful in 2.0, but without a way to more reliably land curses, I think Bindomancy remains king of the E Caster's arsenal.
 
Again, it's really dangerous to assume that all chapters will have NPC trends that match your experience. "Binding immunity is rare" is a claim that you can only make for games you are familiar with.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Again, it's really dangerous to assume that all chapters will have NPC trends that match your experience. "Binding immunity is rare" is a claim that you can only make for games you are familiar with.
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Sure, I agree. But assuming that NPCs are following the base monster guidelines, which is really all we can do, are there any elementals/undead (two creature-types that factor into several spells between E & C) that take Paralysis?
 
Draven said:
Sure, I agree. But assuming that NPCs are following the base monster guidelines, which is really all we can do, are there any elementals/undead (two creature-types that factor into several spells between E & C) that take Paralysis?
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Another question to ask:
In the base database, how many are immune to Binding and how many are immune to Paralysis?

Things immune to Binding tend to be creatures that can innately Bind (spiders) or those that don't have a "body" in the classical sense (oozes, incorporeal undead, mercury golem).

Things immune to Paralysis are things immune to Curse (hags) and things without a metabolism (constructs, elementals, undead); sometimes things with alien metabolism are thrown in (bugs, extra-planar creatures, plants). Additionally, things that can innately Paralyze are frequently immune to Paralysis (basilisk).

In the base database there are significantly more creatures immune to Paralysis than immune to Binding. This disregards the numerous creatures that can rip from Binding because as noted earlier those creatures are made vulnerable during those precious seconds they are ripping out.
 
Certainly. The base MDB is like that. My point is not denying that Paralysis has a very limited target selection; it does, I agree, I dislike it. My very limited point is that making assumptions about NPC tendencies Alliance-wide is problematic, because it is heavily dependent on plot teams and local custom. By far the biggest problem with the rules changes is making sure that they are appropriate for the entire Alliance and not just certain chapters.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
By far the biggest problem with the rules changes is making sure that they are appropriate for the entire Alliance and not just certain chapters.
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There's really nothing that can be realistically done about that, Dan. The vast majority of individuals that are expected to participate in this discussion are individuals who cannot visit the Alliance at large.

Ultimately, if we're expected to give feedback, it has to be assumed to be based on our local experience, or in context of a universal resource (the base MDB).

Any gaming errata that occurs in any broadly-distributed system has to inherently ignore the prevalence of "home rules."
 
Oh I know. That's what makes it the biggest problem.

The best we can do is to occasionally remind the folks involved that sometimes our decisions may be based on something that makes no sense to them because it's fixing or preventing a problem they simply don't have.
 
Sure. Absolutely. But reminding us of that doesn't help as much as saying, "Sure, that's your experience, but here in New Hampshire, the last two years of NPCs have had about 90% monstrous humanoid races relying on PC skills and Superhuman Strength, so we value Curses more powerfully than your Undead-infested nightmare." :P
 
So to direct things back on topic. Why does Paralysis have exceptions that death and other curses do not exactly? Is this by design or omission?
 
Bet you the Deadlands has more undead than you do!

Uh, yeah.

The thing is I don't want to represent like I can speak for all chapters either. My experience with Paralysis vs. Confine matches yours, more or less. We have a lot of spectral undead and other local monsters that are binding immune, but they are (almost) all also immune to Paralysis, so it ends up a wash. But CT often has monsters that ARE affected by Paralysis, as will younger chapters typically. If I was pushing for the rulea to match MY needs every character would have actual numeric values for Honor and Renown because I f'n love Wuxia, but that is (sadly, tragically) not the goal.
 
It's mostly holdovers from when the rules were a lot more fancy (and frustrating), like how Purify could remove Drain and anything caused by a Poison but not otherwise. Sleep poison? Purify it! Sleep spell? Purify does jack!
 
Tantarus said:
For reference "Death was moved from Gift to Curse . Note that this means Death will affect many more creature types than it affects today, expanding its use and desirability (to balance out the change in utility from Life/Death reversability)."

As far as I can tell the exceptions for what Paralysis works on didn't change. Making it the only curse that does not work on Undead/elementals/etc. Is there a reason for this? If we are sacrificing flavor for functionality and universal effects. Why not give Paralysis the same treatment as Death was given to bring it in line with all other curse spells? Was this just an oversight or perhaps there is a reason that is not apparent or I don't understand?
Click to expand...


Also, there is no requirement for local versions to necessarily follow the national MDB. After all, A couple of events ago an E caster threw a Life at one of the local undead variants and was shocked to see it drop to dust... With that in mind, talk about the paralysis thing with your player reps, plot team and/or owner of it doesn't change in the MDB.
 
MaxIrons said:
After all, A couple of events ago an E caster threw a Life at one of the local undead variants and was shocked to see it drop to dust...
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes I was. ;)
 
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