Religion

[markusdark]

If I am not mistaken, two of my favorite series - the Lord of the Rings and the Belgarion series don't have any gods in them. Nor does the Thomas Covenant series of books. They have things that may allude or look like religion but you can probably find some sort of religious connection to just about anything if you're willing to spin doctor it.

 

[jpariury]

If I am not mistaken, two of my favorite series - the Lord of the Rings and the Belgarion series don't have any gods in them. Nor does the Thomas Covenant series of books. They have things that may allude or look like religion but you can probably find some sort of religious connection to just about anything if you're willing to spin doctor it.

Belgariad series has a yangload of Gods: Torak, Aldur, Nedra, etc.

 

[markusdark]

Okey, it was a long time ago and I don't remember anyone praying to them or asking them for help. But like I said, it was a long time ago...

 

[jpariury]

I gotcha. I first read it back right when I was starting to play NERO (plus the Bifrost Guardian series), and I revisit it every couple of years. I let my geek flag fly high.

 

[Mobius]

i never really thought about it but you're right about LoTR, he doesn't really focus on any overt religious themes (though Tom Bombadill is about as close to the god the Green Man as you can get). 'course, much of the series is a political and sociological treatise, which is not an emphasis in many of the games i've played. it's something to think about

(ps Belgariad SOOO much better than the Malloreon. somuchbetter)

 

[markusdark]

You have to remember first and foremost the book was written for him to showcase the new language he invented, called Elven in the book.

 

[Wraith]

Okey, it was a long time ago and I don't remember anyone praying to them or asking them for help. But like I said, it was a long time ago...

They did. Constantly. From waking Issa from his sleep to punish his high priestess, to confronting the weeping God Mara in person, to running a flaming sword into Torak's chest like a stick going into water. Two multiple-thousand-years-old disciples of Aldur were in the party, busy doing direct intervention, and at several points in the book calling up their god for his own intervention. They did battle with Torak's own high priests. I don't even know how you could possibly get the impression that religion wasn't a major and intrinsic part of that world, given the repeated discussions of it and the presence of Gods as on-screen characters. Hell, the entire plot of the Belgariad is about killing a God.

Frankly, I personally doubt you've ever even read the series if you missed religion in it. You'd have to be blind.

i never really thought about it but you're right about LoTR, he doesn't really focus on any overt religious themes (though Tom Bombadill is about as close to the god the Green Man as you can get). 'course, much of the series is a political and sociological treatise, which is not an emphasis in many of the games i've played. it's something to think about.

Yep, if you ignore the entire bit about who Gandalf actually is and why he's around. He's an angel-analogue sent by his gods to take care of things in Middle-Earth, and resurrected by them to become Gandalf the White, then returns to Valinor to live in paradise amongst the other immortals when his work is done. Couldn't be much more Christian without nailing him to a tree.

 

[Mobius]

Yep, if you ignore the entire bit about who Gandalf actually is and why he's around. He's an angel-analogue sent by his gods to take care of things in Middle-Earth, and resurrected by them to become Gandalf the White, then returns to Valinor to live in paradise amongst the other immortals when his work is done. Couldn't be much more Christian without nailing him to a tree.

yeah, i'm still not buying that Tolkien's primary point was to write about religious themes. he might have included messianic and rebirth imagery but i think it was more a foil against the rise and fall of mankind or, in this specific instance, the birth of insight from ignorance. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo are all born in self-doubt and misunderstanding until they resolve their respective epiphanies by embracing their various responsibilities as "adults" in their community. methinks Tolkien was looking to foil them against a, as he perceived them, dangerous set of moral and political ideals regarding expansionistic/imperialistic cultures in the early to mid 19th century. that Gandalf was robed in white, had a beard, and "ascended" had more to do with stock tropes from the Golden Bough and less to do with Christianity. Tolkien's use of religious iconography was a matter of efficiency, if he were writing the same text in Bombay, he would have leaned on triptychs of birth, growth, and death to forward his political vision. Judeo-Christian images were just handy

BUT, this is all beside the point that LoTR is all about Sam. 'cuz he's the bomb. Gandalf and the rest were just kinda there

oh, and Religion in Alliance is cagey. shouldn't do it, wouldn't be prudent

 

[Ezri]

Totally on point about the Belgariad series... it was seriously religion heavy. I think you're kind of stretching with the Gandalf thing though.

While this is a neat discussion, perhaps at this point it should be moved to the off topic section?

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Have any of you even read Tolkien's own forward to the Lord of the Rings?

I quote from the 7th paragraph in the Forward of the Fellowship of the Ring Tolkien's own words on this specific topic.

"As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical... ...The crucial chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past', is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed along essentially the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels."

So just to clear things up here. Tolkien never intended to "push" some views or "inner meaning" in the Lord of the Rings. If people want to make up things that give it meaning to them fine. But don't attribute that to the author.

Tolkien is a huge favorite/passion of mine.

 

[Michiko]

The problem with trying to say that LoTR has a religious message or not is again whether you define it as religious or not.

Cearly the message is mythic and many religions have incoprorated this message into themselves. For example:

Aragorn was a king in exile, the last of a great line of kings who struggles with actualizing his kingship. He is descended from a past king who succumbed to the temptation of the ring and died because of it.

Jesus was a king in exile, the last of a great line of kings who struggles with actualizing his kingship. He is descended from a past king (David, and before that Adam) who succumbed to temptation and died because of it (The Fall).

Arthur was a king in exile, the last of a great line of kings who struggles with actualizing his kingship. He is descended from a past king (Uther) who succumbed to temptation and died because of it.

At what point is the story of a king in exile coming into his kingdom religious and at what point is it a very common storytelling theme? I'm sure we could find thousands of more stories that tell this tale and they are not all religious.

However, if you read the Silmarillion, Gandalf, Sauron and Saruman are all lesser angels, fallen or otherwise. Technically that information isn't really in the LoTR series so.... its all on how you want to spin it. Which is really what this whole discussion is about. You can spin it however you want and be offended by it or not accordingly.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

My point was simply that Tolkien himself did not intend to put any "inner" meaning into his books, and the LoTR story in particular. Heck he didn't even technically publish the Silmarilion himself. Christopher did, after his father died.

I love finding meaning in simple stories and/or movies and what not. However in most cases those are meanings that I love for and bring to the story myself. With LoTR in particular the author himself made his intention clear. So any "inner meaning" you want to ascribe to LoTR is fine. Just don't claim that it was "written into" the story intentionally.

Also J.R.R. Tolkien should be a saint. So now you can write off all my comments and feelings on this matter to unreasonable fan fanaticism.