Shatter/Destroy in your chapter
- Thread starter Draven
- Start date
Somn always had Shatter/Destroy be a must prep spell against the 10yr bbgs.
As for used against PCs, not much ever thrown.
Chicago similar where it's not usually thrown at lowbies intentionally
As for used against PCs, not much ever thrown.
Chicago similar where it's not usually thrown at lowbies intentionally
I've played in Calgary for 2 years now, I don't think I've ever had a shatter/destroy thrown my way. I've used Shatter against another player though >_>
As for NPCs using it, I don't recall seeing it too much/if ever. Generally, the only shatter/destroys that are used are for locks, constructs and the like.
As for NPCs using it, I don't recall seeing it too much/if ever. Generally, the only shatter/destroys that are used are for locks, constructs and the like.
I've lost probably in the range of half a dozen shields to shatters in the ~2 years I've been playing (SF chapter). Shatter by voice makes me sad. The actual effect wasn't too terrible because I'm friends with a master blacksmith, but if I wasn't...
mikestrauss
Squire
When I ran monster desk at HQ, I had a rule that Shatter effects simply couldn't go out on any encounter that was scaled for characters below level 10, ESPECIALLY in modules. It was just too likely to tag a low level player, without a defense, that would then be bored and helpless for a significant portion of the weekend (or for an entire module). I was literally more strict with Shatter effects than with Death effects.
My problem with Shatter is simple. It creates a permanent effect as a level 3 spell. Consider how rare permanent and semi-permanent effects are in our game. Imagine if Silence lasted until some appropriate craftsman handed you a 3 - 5 silver replacement throat. Oh, and that throat had to be the precise model of throat you were previously using. We'd consider that brutal as a 7th level spell, let alone a 3rd level spell.
Shatter is mechanically broken. It is completely useless against a near majority of targets, but when it is useful, it is devastating and often completely removes someone from a fight. What I just said there is also true for the Sleep spell, which is 3 levels higher.
But there is more. Assuming you survive the fight, the spell doesn't end on its own. It continues to afflict you until a very specific cure is applied. Now what I said here also applies to damage, but there are a significantly large number of healing effects in the game and the resource cost for healing is often trivial (a memorized spell is not a permanent cost, nor is refitting when damage only strikes armor).
Finally, Shatter is much more devastating to PCs than it is to NPCs. Again, this is true for some other effects in the game, but that is still one more tally against this effect.
-MS
My problem with Shatter is simple. It creates a permanent effect as a level 3 spell. Consider how rare permanent and semi-permanent effects are in our game. Imagine if Silence lasted until some appropriate craftsman handed you a 3 - 5 silver replacement throat. Oh, and that throat had to be the precise model of throat you were previously using. We'd consider that brutal as a 7th level spell, let alone a 3rd level spell.
Shatter is mechanically broken. It is completely useless against a near majority of targets, but when it is useful, it is devastating and often completely removes someone from a fight. What I just said there is also true for the Sleep spell, which is 3 levels higher.
But there is more. Assuming you survive the fight, the spell doesn't end on its own. It continues to afflict you until a very specific cure is applied. Now what I said here also applies to damage, but there are a significantly large number of healing effects in the game and the resource cost for healing is often trivial (a memorized spell is not a permanent cost, nor is refitting when damage only strikes armor).
Finally, Shatter is much more devastating to PCs than it is to NPCs. Again, this is true for some other effects in the game, but that is still one more tally against this effect.
-MS
Alavatar
Baron
Interesting idea. This conceptual philosophy could remove many timers from the game and help stimulate the Craftsman economy.
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I can only remember one time I lost my weapons due to shatter but that was a rough day. I was about level 11 or so in a group of level 19+ players. A mod opened up with a shatter storm from an NPC behind us and we got swamped. It was a rough day. To be fair though that was only one time and we were kinda being dumb by going to fight the monsters. They stole my only MI but I got it back about a year later.
mikestrauss
Squire
Give me free rein, I could remove lots of timers from the game. I would just convert a significant portion of the 10-minute timers to "until removed" with options for removal including:
1) Appropriate removal effect (ie. Cleanse, Purify, etc.)
2) Spending one minute kneeling and miming appropriate removal actions (basically identical rules to First Aid or refitting)
I'd do that for any effect that currently has a 10 minute counter, but leaves you at least partially active (Weakness, Shatter*, Shun, Pin*, Drain, etc.).
For anything that completely immobilizes you or knocks you out, I'd leave the 10 minute counter (because maintaining a counter while doing NOTHING else isn't that hard) while allowing the following options for removal:
1) Appropriate removal effect
2) Another individual spending one minute kneeling and miming appropriate removal actions
For #2, Sleep used to have a clause that you could wake someone up by slapping them for a minute (it might still, for all I remember). I see nothing wrong with someone helping you out of Confine or Paralysis, too.
Heck, if you really want to shoot for consistency (I lean in that direction whenever possible), make 1 minute recovery the default that doesn't require a skill. Make 30 second recovery possible with an appropriate skill (ie. Blacksmith for Shatter, any weapon skill for Web, etc.). And yes, under this theory, everyone could perform first aid, but the First Aid skill would cut the time in half. And maybe even allow Craftsman to craft one-shot items that cut that time down to a 3-count for skilled people (adding a new use for various craft skills).
But that is all heavy theorycrafting and pretty off-topic. The simple point is that removing timers from the game isn't that hard, but would require a pretty major shift in rules.
-MS
*Yes, technically these aren't 10-minute effects, but they still adapt well to this (with serious rules modifications for Shatter).
KyleSchmelz
Fighter
On something like my third plot event, I started the first mod of the night (a fairly long town mod) but throwing 3 Shatters against 3 shields, thinking I'd hear 2-3 Spell Shields or just No Effect. Instead, those 3 lowish level PCs were without shields for the next 2 hours. It's not like that was the last time I ever threw a Shatter effect at a PC (I do think it has its place) but I was definitely a lot more careful after that.
Alkalin3
Knight
I'm very in love with this idea. Especially if it affects rendered weapons some how. That'd make shatter and destroy useful in our game, where most weapons are rendered.
This effect(s) is rarely ever used in South Michigan. We tend to not throw things unless we want to make them stick, and shatter is particularly devastating to the only group it effects, low level players, while entirely useless against high level players.
Sage of Legaia
Rogue
Shatter doesn't come out too much up here in Calgary that I'm aware of, but we do deal with a reasonable amount of Acidic Skin/Blood (and are usually told ahead of the battle that this is the case).
We also have... 3 or maybe 4 Master Blacksmiths, 1 of which shows up to almost every game without fail, and I think they all have a massive stockpile of spare weapons? Plus we, as a chapter, tend to just give away things people are in of, particularly during town battles, so I can't think of an event where having an item ruined by some effect was a huge impact to any player.
We also have... 3 or maybe 4 Master Blacksmiths, 1 of which shows up to almost every game without fail, and I think they all have a massive stockpile of spare weapons? Plus we, as a chapter, tend to just give away things people are in of, particularly during town battles, so I can't think of an event where having an item ruined by some effect was a huge impact to any player.
JordarAd
Newbie
I've found that shatters and destroys can be used well and effectively, with minimal detriment to low level PCs IF weapon tags from NPCs are a commodity for players. The problem with using S/D spells comes from the widely-used "monster weapons" in which NPC weapon/armor tags are not given out as treasure for encounters, which makes S/D spells more devastating if there aren't backup tags for low-level PCs or a decent blacksmith PC/NPC available in town.
David (Daygar) Dickerson
Newbie
So at Crossroads and ABG I see it about once a game on avg. The worst I have seen was a creature swinging shatters attacking PC's armor. It was put down quickly but at least one person was hit and screwed for that day. I love the idea of getting rid of the timers....those are my least favorite thing about our rule system.
