Social Awkward/Loner players in a game

[Dreamingfurther]

Again, I say that people who choose to RP loner characters should realize that that choice affects their likelyness to be part of a team. If at some point they decide that they can give up being brooding and withdrawn or whatever then they can change their characters RP to match that. It's not like they have to get permission from anyone. It's their character.

You're making the assumption that they choose to be a loner. Sometimes, like in the real world, it just happens. They can try all they want, but they just don't fit into any particular team and so no team will keep them permanently. They can try to form a team, but other teams end up being more attractive for whatever reason. This happens. It's normal. That's the way social grouping works.

When you are playing a game that you CHOOSE to be playing. (And I have to assume we all do.) If you chose to play a character that "ends up" being a loner that is your choice. Don't say you "have" to do that our couldn't play that character, or another character differently. Its up to you. So if certain elements about how the game functions socially get really frustrating for you because of how you play a given character... change! That's on you, but refusing to do so and just railing about the system because it punishes/rewards certain character types and choices doesn't make sense to me.

 

[markusdark]

Re: Magic Item "power creep" solutions

Some players (not characters) are 'shunned' by other players. Maybe their natural speech patterns grate on people's nerves, maybe they pick their nose in public, maybe they are simply annoying. Whatever the reason, there are players who wind up being loners because of the player's, not character's, personality.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Re: Magic Item "power creep" solutions

I'm not sure that it is incumbent upon the people who run the games to cater to those who have poor social skills for that reason alone. Before I come across as an a++, let me say that I personally am not the most socially deft person ever. I have a number of flaws which I don't really want to dwell on, but will if it somehow legitimizes what I'm saying. I am speaking directly from personal experience, however, when I say that most of the people I play with are a good deal more tolerant and understanding than the average 9th grader. It's not fun to be a social misfit, but as an adult playing with other adults it's not that make a new reputation for yourself in a new social circle. For someone in a situation where they're not so much a misfit as a pariah, then that person may want to look into social counseling or therapy. Personally, I attach no stigma to trying to better one's self. A drop out going back to school is laudable, and no less so an alcoholic seeking treatment or a stroke victim working to get their life back. Seeking to improve social skills is no different, and "I've been a loner since high school," doesn't sit well with me as an excuse.

 

[markusdark]

Re: Magic Item "power creep" solutions

I never said that others cannot try to change their social skills, but some people just have a hard time doing it - and coming to a fantasy game where you can be all that you CAN'T be is something that such a person would flock to (can you have a flock of one?). What I am saying is that sometimes a person has either an emotional or mental issue that stops them from working well with others. I know many people who have perscriptions to help with such issues and some people who don't and have the issues. To simply say that not being able to join a team is their fault is just like saying that an average person you know isn't on the Yankees because it's their fault. Now, we can go with the idea of simply banning or letting those people have miserable times at the games while they try to get their social skills up to par but I didn't think that that is what this was about.

I also don't think that as a player, I have to sacrifice my game enjoyment coddling someone that I would rather not be joined up with. Does that make me a bad person? Perhaps. But if it isn't Plot's responsibility, then it is definitely not the other player's responsibility either. I signed up to play a game. Plot and the owners signed up to provide an entertaining game for its members. Which sounds more responsible?

 

[MKing]

Again, I say that people who choose to RP loner characters should realize that that choice affects their likelyness to be part of a team. If at some point they decide that they can give up being brooding and withdrawn or whatever then they can change their characters RP to match that. It's not like they have to get permission from anyone. It's their character.

You're making the assumption that they choose to be a loner. Sometimes, like in the real world, it just happens. They can try all they want, but they just don't fit into any particular team and so no team will keep them permanently. They can try to form a team, but other teams end up being more attractive for whatever reason. This happens. It's normal. That's the way social grouping works.

When you are playing a game that you CHOOSE to be playing. (And I have to assume we all do.) If you chose to play a character that "ends up" being a loner that is your choice. Don't say you "have" to do that our couldn't play that character, or another character differently. Its up to you. So if certain elements about how the game functions socially get really frustrating for you because of how you play a given character... change! That's on you, but refusing to do so and just railing about the system because it punishes/rewards certain character types and choices doesn't make sense to me.

yes Dave there are many things that dont make sense to you...like they are talking about the players having problems with getting on a team and building a team...and you just assume that they are talking about a character...see there is a difference between the 2 ...its nice to see that you can pull something out of another topic and create a new one...in which you borderline tell the person that they are wrong and should Change cause you dont understand how they would like to play the game. If this person was someone who had a problem with social interactions what you did could cause them to leave...and in turn tell people that they shouldnt play this game because people think that you should play "their type of game and not your own"...yes Im going a little to far...but the same can be said about you....

I think the plot team of a game should try and make sure everyone is having fun..no matter what their game wants are..

 

[Morganne]

To keep things civil here.. Mark, a moderator, split the topic to try to keep things on-topic in the other thread. This was not David choosing to start a new thread on this topic.

 

[Michiko]

I think it depends on the type of awkwardness. With tongue firmly in cheek I will happily say I have several very socially awkward people on my team (love you guys) and its cool. I am also not at all ashamed to say that I was much more socially awkward when I began playing this game back in '03 and I credit my experiences with helping me to overcome some of that awkwardness.

markus, is the game you're referring to a very small one? I can imagine that with a smaller game it would be more difficult to find people who fit together. Its been my experience that in most of the chapters I have played (CT, NH, NJ, HQ) only the most awkward of awkward (I'm talking people who, as Dan said probably need some kind of professional help) can't find SOMEONE who is ok with their brand of awkward.

It is the plot team's job to entertain PCs, but on the other hand they are volunteers and they want to have fun too. If someone is awkward to the point that they are offensive to be around then no one should be forced to entertain that person. If they are just shy well... I don't know that it is plot's job to try and draw someone out of their shell. If they are providing well rounded plot then there should be opportunities for anyone to get involved to the point that they choose to put in the effort.

 

[MKing]

K...

 

[markusdark]

I am not referring to any known player now but rather about players that I have witnessed over my days of gaming, both tabletop as well as LARP and have come across these type of people. Usually, they find a way to integrate themselves into the game. I just felt that saying simply that 'it's their fault' was a bit dismissive and very generalizing of the state. Some of who have such issues as social anxiety who still want to play have to work up the nerve to even say hello to people.

 

[Michiko]

I hear that. I've totally been there. On the other hand I think the point that ending up (and staying) a loner is your choice. If you have to work up the courage to say hello and make the choice not to say hello because you are afraid, you miss out on the opportunity to either making a new friend or survive the experience of being rejected and getting stronger because of it.

Please don't think I am being dismissive because I completely understand what that feeling is like. However, just because something is unpleasant to hear doesn't necessarily make it untrue.

 

[Wraith]

And some players are simply not going to end up working with teams due to other factors. What gets me is simply that no matter where I go, I'm a traveling player. Since the nearest games are 5 hours off in different cardinal directions, it is a real time and money sink to be a 'regular' at either of them. And since I'm not in a position to be in on the social functioning of the group when not at game, no matter how often I come to game I'm always going to be viewed as somewhat of an outsider to the 'locals'.

It doesn't really bother me on an OOG level, but it does make it nigh impossible to build any kind of working team when you're talking about people you see face to face maybe every other month or so for a couple days. Unfortunately this sort of feeling has led to all of the people actually local to me who used to come to events pretty much abandoning Alliance play as well, so there's not much to do about it.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

To keep things civil here.. Mark, a moderator, split the topic to try to keep things on-topic in the other thread. This was not David choosing to start a new thread on this topic.

Thank you. I myself was a bit surprised that I had started a topic on the matter... Was worried about being hacked. Will try to get a response up if I can find the time. But thanks Christina, this was a little disconcerting.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Now to respond to what others had said.

You're making the assumption that they choose to be a loner. Sometimes, like in the real world, it just happens. They can try all they want, but they just don't fit into any particular team and so no team will keep them permanently. They can try to form a team, but other teams end up being more attractive for whatever reason. This happens. It's normal. That's the way social grouping works.

When you are playing a game that you CHOOSE to be playing. (And I have to assume we all do.) If you chose to play a character that "ends up" being a loner that is your choice. Don't say you "have" to do that our couldn't play that character, or another character differently. Its up to you. So if certain elements about how the game functions socially get really frustrating for you because of how you play a given character... change! That's on you, but refusing to do so and just railing about the system because it punishes/rewards certain character types and choices doesn't make sense to me.

yes Dave there are many things that dont make sense to you...like they are talking about the players having problems with getting on a team and building a team...and you just assume that they are talking about a character...see there is a difference between the 2 ...its nice to see that you can pull something out of another topic and create a new one...in which you borderline tell the person that they are wrong and should Change cause you dont understand how they would like to play the game. If this person was someone who had a problem with social interactions what you did could cause them to leave...and in turn tell people that they shouldnt play this game because people think that you should play "their type of game and not your own"...yes Im going a little to far...but the same can be said about you....

I think the plot team of a game should try and make sure everyone is having fun..no matter what their game wants are..

This is "refuting" a claim I never made. Is it the plot team's job to reach out to the players? Of course! But at the same time should we talk about changing the magic item system, (which is on what thread my comment was made on) as a result of some players that the plot team needs to reach out to? No, that's what I understand.

And some players are simply not going to end up working with teams due to other factors. What gets me is simply that no matter where I go, I'm a traveling player. Since the nearest games are 5 hours off in different cardinal directions, it is a real time and money sink to be a 'regular' at either of them. And since I'm not in a position to be in on the social functioning of the group when not at game, no matter how often I come to game I'm always going to be viewed as somewhat of an outsider to the 'locals'.

It doesn't really bother me on an OOG level, but it does make it nigh impossible to build any kind of working team when you're talking about people you see face to face maybe every other month or so for a couple days. Unfortunately this sort of feeling has led to all of the people actually local to me who used to come to events pretty much abandoning Alliance play as well, so there's not much to do about it.

I understand that for some individuals joining and working with a team is going to be harder. But you can't hold the game responsible for people that don't live close, that is something they have to work out. Once again not to be mean, but at the same time I am in many ways totally in the same situation. And you can ask others, but I have fully integrated with a strong team to the point that I video chat in for team meetings even though for a large part of the year I am multiple states away. Is it hard? Sure. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. And currently the rules are written to encourage team play/organization. If people want to change that fine, but don't push it under the guise of "fixing broken magic items" which is what the other thread was starting to sound like.

Now maybe we can turn this thread into a discussion about whether or not the rules should emphasize team play/treasure organization to the extent they do?

 

[Jevedor]

I have to agree with Dave. Living far away would make it more difficult to get involved BUT given all the forms of modern communication especially considering the internet.. or even texting, keeping in touch with players you meet at games 5 hours away isnt that hard. I openly communicate with players in games 10 plus hours away with out any problem. its all about effort levels, which is really what this boils down to.

I have known plenty of socially awkward people, but it doesnt really matter how quirky you are (assuming your just not plain offensive) so long as you put forth effort eventually you will adapt and integrate... in fact, in a lot of cases i think when people IG/OOG who are more integrated and comfortable in this environment see new players who are social awkward but trying to get involved, they generally help them out and take them under wing. Really its the people who dont try at all who end up permanent loners. Now they may say they are trying... but saying you are trying isnt the same as actually trying and that is a common mistake a lot of people IRL dont even think about... thinking about doing something is not the same as trying. If a player wants to integrate they have to take actions and make the effort for themselves. No amount of work the plot team does can make a person take actions in their personal growth. Personal growth has to come from the individual. All a plot team can do is provide opportunities (which I would say they do pretty well right now).

As far as people that are just plainly to anxious or socially troubled to even attempt trying to get involved, as much as it sucks that they are having trouble integrating, it is not plots/staffs responsibility to make them change. Those people should probably seek professional help and counsel..... I suppose if the situation seemed dire it would a nice gesture to have a conversation with the player to see if there is anything one can specifically do to help... but that can come from anyone not just staff. )n that regard though that would be a personal choice of a player and not a responsibility. In any event we cant change the game to correct this. Going out of the way or specifically changing the game/rules to better involve a person who is unwilling to get involved is only catering to them and IMO actually reinforces that person problem to not take actions on their own accord and make steps on their own.

 

[jpariury]

Just to track how the conversation evolved:
1 - somehow the suggestion got made that plotsters/mod marshals should scale to include the "Expected" number of magic items characters have on them.
2 - someone said "hey, not all of them get the chance to get cool items.... those go to the groups"
3 - someone said "not everyone gets to be in a group and get group items"
4 - someone went "well, that's based on their choices of what to play, etc"
5 - someone was all like "yeah, sometimes its not by choice kinda issue"
6 - "yeah-hunh"
7 - "nunh-unh".... so then we got onto "what about the non-fitting-in types", etc.

The short and sweet of my thought on that topic is that such a person is an outlier, neither the norm nor even someone that occurs with sufficient regularity that any particular system needs to be adapted for them. Tbh, it goes back to my original statement there that you shouldn't rely on numbers, whether derived from the inclusion of magic items or not, to determine your scaling. It requires observing what's happening and adjusting as you go along. i.e. don't send the guy with a trick knee on a chase mod, don't send the 20th level character who doesn't know the right side of a broadsword up against your young gung-ho npc, regardless of the disparity in numbers.

I have known plenty of socially awkward people, but it doesnt really matter how quirky you are (assuming your just not plain offensive) so long as you put forth effort eventually you will adapt and integrate...

I don't know this to be true, and in fact, I have experience of this being false. Even recently, I had a player approach me and say "hey, JP, I'm not having fun at this event, because every time I ask people to join me in hunting for lairs, or I ask them if I can help out, they say 'sure, sure', but then leave me behind when it's time to do stuff". Mind you, the player'd been playing this game for over 5 years already. They'd started out with a group, but due to their general "issues" (bad ankles, not the greatest oog fighter, assorted social awkwardness, etc.), was quickly abandoned whenever either their specific skillset, or the MacGuffin that they ended up with, was unnecessary. The idea that "enh, they'll eventually adapt and it will fix itself" simply doesn't always work out so much.

If anything, the prevalence of magic items makes such a person less likely to integrate because they're not likely to have anything that anyone else doesn't already have fairly easily. But, as I said, you shouldn't scale based on some crazy nine-page theorem either.

 

[Wraith]

JP : I agree. It's not something we could ever really scale for. It's also not something that encourages people to come back to games. Same problem that we get with new players walking in, being alienated due to power level differences, and not coming back.

 

[Dave]

Also another suggestion to the social awkward: NPC

You can go out as just damage (no/low roleplaying), come back and have a short talk about it, then decide to go out again. There are a lot of benefits, and plot will love you for the help. (hell, you don't have to be socially awkward for plot to love you for NPCing, but we take all we can, lol).

 

[Jevedor]

I don't know this to be true, and in fact, I have experience of this being false. Even recently, I had a player approach me and say "hey, JP, I'm not having fun at this event, because every time I ask people to join me in hunting for lairs, or I ask them if I can help out, they say 'sure, sure', but then leave me behind when it's time to do stuff". Mind you, the player'd been playing this game for over 5 years already. They'd started out with a group, but due to their general "issues" (bad ankles, not the greatest oog fighter, assorted social awkwardness, etc.), was quickly abandoned whenever either their specific skillset, or the MacGuffin that they ended up with, was unnecessary. The idea that "enh, they'll eventually adapt and it will fix itself" simply doesn't always work out so much.

You have a point, I guess i didnt really phrase what I meant properly. I guess a better way to word it would be If a player continues to put forth effort and try new things eventually they will integrate.. or reintegrate if the case may be thus. In the situation you described above it sounds like the player was continuously trying to get other players involved in something they were uninterested in.. probably not the best approach. Not saying that that player is wrong for doing so mind you, but if they are trying to be involved than focusing on helping the players do something they are interested in first is probably a better way to get involved.

Just to track how the conversation evolved:
1 - somehow the suggestion got made that plotsters/mod marshals should scale to include the "Expected" number of magic items characters have on them.
2 - someone said "hey, not all of them get the chance to get cool items.... those go to the groups"
3 - someone said "not everyone gets to be in a group and get group items"
4 - someone went "well, that's based on their choices of what to play, etc"
5 - someone was all like "yeah, sometimes its not by choice kinda issue"
6 - "yeah-hunh"
7 - "nunh-unh".... so then we got onto "what about the non-fitting-in types", etc.

Also to clarify I jumped in on this thread after it got pulled out of whatever thread it came from. I have no real basis on the conversation dealing with the whole magic item thing. I just found the whole social awkward player discussion interesting.

 

[evi1r0n]

I have used Alliance to get over my social anxiety disorder. I was becoming agoraphobic before Alliance. I am awkward, fat, have a bad back and epilepsy but I was welcomed with open arms. The players and staff in WA make a point of helping new players into the game regardless of their issues and I have a few. =) Next time you see that guy/gal that doesn't quite fit in ask em on a mod. Reverse meta-game just a bit to help them out. I am not suggesting breaking character but being a little flexible can go a long way to getting our numbers up.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

The idea that "enh, they'll eventually adapt and it will fix itself" simply doesn't always work out so much.

I agree with this; sometimes it works itself out and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, I think it's almost always an OOG issue. We recently had a player who made some poor character choices and was getting left out, and after some discussion with staffers about 'being left out' the player was able to rectify some of those issues and become more included. It certainly helps to listen to the complaints of these players even if the staff isn't at fault; the staff may be able to help the player see why they're having (or not having) some the experiences they are. (Though don't read that as "putting it all on the player," this isn't often the case, but it does work sometimes to catch personalities/characters/playstyles/attitudes that could mesh better with the players/staff/gameworld before it becomes an unsolvable problem.)

Even recently, I had a player approach me and say "hey, JP, I'm not having fun at this event, because every time I ask people to join me in hunting for lairs, or I ask them if I can help out, they say 'sure, sure', but then leave me behind when it's time to do stuff". Mind you, the player'd been playing this game for over 5 years already. They'd started out with a group, but due to their general "issues" (bad ankles, not the greatest oog fighter, assorted social awkwardness, etc.), was quickly abandoned whenever either their specific skillset, or the MacGuffin that they ended up with, was unnecessary.

This is, unfortunately, a bad example, there was way more at work in this situation then may have been obvious, but I won't call it out here, as that would make the situation terribly specific.

you shouldn't scale based on some crazy nine-page theorem either.

Since we're on about scaling again, I don't scale by level, I scale by approximate group. I know most of my players' character's abilities reasonably well, and when I don't, they're probably new and low level, so I basically do anyways. Taking the time to get an idea of the power level and the skill sets of the various people in your game really helps to provide a serious challenge when you need one. While I understand that this can take a lot of work and time to really learn, I think it's really worth it. If any one player from (very far) out of chapter (not on the WC) shows up and I just don't have that information about them, I'll still scale for the approximate group that they're playing with. If I end up with an entire team of folks from out of chapter, I'll observe them in a wave battle and guess, then hope I can fix it on the fly. That's really where my system breaks down, but it happens only once every few years, so it doesn't concern me very much. (Plus, if my players are to be believed, it works pretty well, too.)