Traps
- Thread starter Azmodeous
- Start date
Per page 146 of the ARB:
Triggers: All traps must have a real, physical
trigger. This trigger could produce a light
(such as from a flashbulb) or a sound (such as
from a mouse trap). This trigger must always
be detectable by an impartial observer.
Due to that, I would rule that sound or optics triggered traps are not an option.
Triggers: All traps must have a real, physical
trigger. This trigger could produce a light
(such as from a flashbulb) or a sound (such as
from a mouse trap). This trigger must always
be detectable by an impartial observer.
Due to that, I would rule that sound or optics triggered traps are not an option.
norman b
Squire
Sound and optic traps are not allowed. its not something you could easily disarm without a marshall needing a tool to reset.
they can be as loud as you want. Certain camp sites do have noise restrictions so please take that into account, but if you wanted to make it loud enough to hear across camp during the day, i say good luck.
they can be as loud as you want. Certain camp sites do have noise restrictions so please take that into account, but if you wanted to make it loud enough to hear across camp during the day, i say good luck.
Sheakhan
Adept
From my understanding of what he was looking at in regards to sound activated traps, disarming would be accomplished by setting the device off from a safe distance with, say, a rock, or unplugging the power source. The thing with the rule for triggers is that it specifies that the trigger must be visible, but doesn't specify the same in regards to the triggering mechanism or portion of the trap that activates it, so you can hide a fishing line tripwire or bury a pressure plate. Unless either my wording or the wording of the rulebook is in error.
Either way, the only tool required to reset the device would be one, maybe two hands which every marshal I've encountered keeps... wait for it... handy.
Wakka wakka!
EDIT: rather, the wording specifies both using the same term, which makes very little sense. Unless I'm mistaken, the trigger of a standard trap is what activates the sound/light/effect. Meaning that the rulebook is either saying that your tripwires or pressure plates need to be blatantly visible (which kind of reduces the usefulness of traps) or that the portion of the trap that produces the effect when triggered is visible (which also reduces the usefulness of traps, but at least makes it a challenge to identify the trigger and disarm it).
EDIT the Second: After browsing every instance of "trap" in the rulebook, it seems pretty obvious that the latter interpretation is correct, as there are several examples of traps listed in the book that have concealed triggers, where trigger means the part of the trap that the player interacts with to cause the trap to go off. Long story short, the wording for traps in the book is misleading. That being said, so long as the actual sound-making portion of the sound-activated trap is visible and accessible, it fits all the rules for traps. I think this merits a Marshal verdict and probably ultimately one on a national level.
Either way, the only tool required to reset the device would be one, maybe two hands which every marshal I've encountered keeps... wait for it... handy.
Wakka wakka!
EDIT: rather, the wording specifies both using the same term, which makes very little sense. Unless I'm mistaken, the trigger of a standard trap is what activates the sound/light/effect. Meaning that the rulebook is either saying that your tripwires or pressure plates need to be blatantly visible (which kind of reduces the usefulness of traps) or that the portion of the trap that produces the effect when triggered is visible (which also reduces the usefulness of traps, but at least makes it a challenge to identify the trigger and disarm it).
EDIT the Second: After browsing every instance of "trap" in the rulebook, it seems pretty obvious that the latter interpretation is correct, as there are several examples of traps listed in the book that have concealed triggers, where trigger means the part of the trap that the player interacts with to cause the trap to go off. Long story short, the wording for traps in the book is misleading. That being said, so long as the actual sound-making portion of the sound-activated trap is visible and accessible, it fits all the rules for traps. I think this merits a Marshal verdict and probably ultimately one on a national level.
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If you would like to take it to the National Rules Discussion, please feel free.
However, the trigger is what sets off the trap, and it must be physical. As light and sound are not physical items, yet set off the electronic trap, those are specifically disallowed. If you set up a pressure plate, or some other concealed trigger, it has to be detectable (not necessarily visible) by an impartial observer and disarmable. The wording is a little loose on this, but here's what it boils down to, just as locks have to be demonstrably pickable, traps have to be demonstrably disarmable. The goal is to let those with legerdemain the opportunity to both set traps AND disarm them. In short you should never be able to set the "perfect" or even really the "near-perfect" trap. There always needs to be some flaw, some way of disarming it, so that the person disarming the trap has as much fun as the person setting it.
However, the trigger is what sets off the trap, and it must be physical. As light and sound are not physical items, yet set off the electronic trap, those are specifically disallowed. If you set up a pressure plate, or some other concealed trigger, it has to be detectable (not necessarily visible) by an impartial observer and disarmable. The wording is a little loose on this, but here's what it boils down to, just as locks have to be demonstrably pickable, traps have to be demonstrably disarmable. The goal is to let those with legerdemain the opportunity to both set traps AND disarm them. In short you should never be able to set the "perfect" or even really the "near-perfect" trap. There always needs to be some flaw, some way of disarming it, so that the person disarming the trap has as much fun as the person setting it.
Sheakhan
Adept
I'm just concerned about the wording of the book as it lumps together triggers and mechanisms.
So the intent of the rules is that the trigger (which we agree activates the trap but isn't necessarily the sound or light producing device) must be discernible by an impartial observer. Does this mean that anybody could walk in the room and go: "Hey look, a trap!" Or does it mean that if you're looking for it, you are reasonably expected to find it?
For instance, the book specifies two instances where a brief glance might miss the trigger.
1. A pressure plate concealed under a rug. Noticeable if you're looking but not obvious at a casual glance.
2. A wired box that triggers when opened more than a small bit. Not immediately apparent, but if you cracked the lid and shone a light in, you'd see it.
On a side note, when you say physical, you mean tangible correct? As both light and sound are physical forces/energies though not necessarily tangible in the way that a pressure plate, trip wire, or lever might be.
So the intent of the rules is that the trigger (which we agree activates the trap but isn't necessarily the sound or light producing device) must be discernible by an impartial observer. Does this mean that anybody could walk in the room and go: "Hey look, a trap!" Or does it mean that if you're looking for it, you are reasonably expected to find it?
For instance, the book specifies two instances where a brief glance might miss the trigger.
1. A pressure plate concealed under a rug. Noticeable if you're looking but not obvious at a casual glance.
2. A wired box that triggers when opened more than a small bit. Not immediately apparent, but if you cracked the lid and shone a light in, you'd see it.
On a side note, when you say physical, you mean tangible correct? As both light and sound are physical forces/energies though not necessarily tangible in the way that a pressure plate, trip wire, or lever might be.
norman b
Squire
Correct. Anyone can see traps, if they can actually see them. But only those with legerdemain can disarm them. If you want to hide a trap under a box and it goes off when you pick it up, so be it as long as there is a time while that box is being lifted that the trap can be disarmed.
Also, correct on the point that you need to be able to touch the trigger mechanism.
As for having two hands to disarm/arm light/sound traps, yes we marshals do have them. Unless there is an obvious switch on the outside to turn it off easily, then someone would need to dismantle it from its electricity source I.E. batteries. If a screwdriver is needed to disarm a trap, you are doing traps wrong. Also, if a marshal has to use one to put it back together, then it was not disarmed properly. This is spelled out in the rulebook.
Also, correct on the point that you need to be able to touch the trigger mechanism.
As for having two hands to disarm/arm light/sound traps, yes we marshals do have them. Unless there is an obvious switch on the outside to turn it off easily, then someone would need to dismantle it from its electricity source I.E. batteries. If a screwdriver is needed to disarm a trap, you are doing traps wrong. Also, if a marshal has to use one to put it back together, then it was not disarmed properly. This is spelled out in the rulebook.
Keegan, I like you, but I gotta tell you man. Being pedantic doesn't earn you points. Yes, I am aware that light and sound are physical phenomenon, but you are dancing around the letter of the rules and missing the spirit. Yes, it means that someone who was looking for traps would have a reasonable chance to find them. You're right, you should need tools to disarm some traps, however, the tools you should need should be something from a makeshift medieval lockpick kit, it shouldn't include screwdrivers or the like. I've seen batteries used, and the only ones that have ever passed used the following method of disarming the device: you could open the case and take the batteries out by hand.
Sheakhan
Adept
I totally came across that way, and in retrospect there was no other way to interpret it. I didn't intend to be a douche, I just was and I'm sorry. I'll try and watch that in the future as you're not the only person who I've rubbed that way and obviously it's something on my part.
In regards to the tools and the like, I suppose I'm just not sure what the distinction is between a player using a non-period implement to disarm a trap and a player using a non-period mechanism for the trap. Obviously in the latter case that may be a requirement as per the rulebook in order to produce safe traps, but it means that at some point you need to metagame some OOG non-period knowledge to understand the device and how to set/disarm it.
I'm not entirely certain I understand where the spirit or the letter of the rules might disallow non-traditional trap triggers so long as they are easily located and disarmed, for instance by having a discernible microphone or light sensitive device. It seems like it'd simply require a different approach and not a different setup, hence my confusion as to it's legality.
Sound sensitive devices could be worked around or set off either by being quiet and muffling your steps, or throwing something into their range to set them off safely, or the simple battery popping.
Light sensitive devices could be disabled via mirror, battery popping, or alternate light source depending on their setup.
EDIT: I should clarify. I'm not trying to argue a point of view or an agenda or anything. If it sounds that way, totally not the plan. I legitimately don't understand the reasoning behind the aforementioned and I'm just trying to get a bead on the end of the line answers.
In regards to the tools and the like, I suppose I'm just not sure what the distinction is between a player using a non-period implement to disarm a trap and a player using a non-period mechanism for the trap. Obviously in the latter case that may be a requirement as per the rulebook in order to produce safe traps, but it means that at some point you need to metagame some OOG non-period knowledge to understand the device and how to set/disarm it.
I'm not entirely certain I understand where the spirit or the letter of the rules might disallow non-traditional trap triggers so long as they are easily located and disarmed, for instance by having a discernible microphone or light sensitive device. It seems like it'd simply require a different approach and not a different setup, hence my confusion as to it's legality.
Sound sensitive devices could be worked around or set off either by being quiet and muffling your steps, or throwing something into their range to set them off safely, or the simple battery popping.
Light sensitive devices could be disabled via mirror, battery popping, or alternate light source depending on their setup.
EDIT: I should clarify. I'm not trying to argue a point of view or an agenda or anything. If it sounds that way, totally not the plan. I legitimately don't understand the reasoning behind the aforementioned and I'm just trying to get a bead on the end of the line answers.
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I'm not saying it's a terrible idea Keegan. I'm simply saying that it's generally beyond the scope of traps as we currently use them, and to change things would require a paradigm shift as well as approval by the owners. Part of it is that there is already a movement in many chapters away from requiring physical trap triggers/lockpicks (as some places have local ordinances against them). Part of it is that screwdrivers come in multiple sizes for multiple sized screw heads, and having to carry around multiple different specialty tools like that is a rabbit hole that just gets deeper and uglier the more tightly you try to control what is and isn't appropriate. So... a lot is left to the discretion of the individual chapter. In Seattle, we tend to be focused more on tripwires with mousetraps and pressure plates than electronic methods.
Sheakhan
Adept
Hrrmm... Well, its not as if the largely accepted trigger types don't offer plenty of opportunity as is. I've noticed that a lot of rules questions I have end up being answered with the potential far-reaching effects they could have, and I think a lot of that scope comes from experience. I appreciate when folks take the time to spell it out like that, often my blinders get in the way and I find I'm looking at things and their narrow influence, not always considering the more abstract implications.
Draven
Count
If you feel that the trap rules, as presented and clarified, could be modified, I invite you to the Rules Theory/Discussion section. That's a far better venue for challenging or being informed of the "why" of a rule.
As Marshals, the best we can do is clarify/enforce the rules as we believe intended by the authors. Somewhat vague wording sometimes means we have to interpret as experts, and when we give that interpretation, it should pretty much be accepted as truth, unless another Marshal wants to correct us, or feels an ARC clarification should be necessary. That's not to say a Marshal can't be wrong, we absolutely can be, and I'm no exception. However, it makes our job harder to do when a clarification is asked for, given by a marshal, questioned, clarified by a second marshal, and again challenged.
As Marshals, the best we can do is clarify/enforce the rules as we believe intended by the authors. Somewhat vague wording sometimes means we have to interpret as experts, and when we give that interpretation, it should pretty much be accepted as truth, unless another Marshal wants to correct us, or feels an ARC clarification should be necessary. That's not to say a Marshal can't be wrong, we absolutely can be, and I'm no exception. However, it makes our job harder to do when a clarification is asked for, given by a marshal, questioned, clarified by a second marshal, and again challenged.
Alavatar
Baron
As a note: the intent is that it be obvious who set off a trap. Weapon traps, for instance, affect the person who triggered it so a microphone or optic sensor does not give the fidelity of who set off the trap that a traditional trigger does.
And Note #2: The other intent for the trap rules is to attempt to facilitate representational medieval traps, which is generally mechanically based (trip wires, mechanisms, pressure plates, etc.). Electronics that basically require the batteries to be removed are generally discouraged because they are significantly anachronistic. Utilizing more advanced components such as light sensors and microphones are very anachronistic and, at best, would be "magical" within the game; "magical" traps are not part of the rules other than Warder Glyph.
And Note #2: The other intent for the trap rules is to attempt to facilitate representational medieval traps, which is generally mechanically based (trip wires, mechanisms, pressure plates, etc.). Electronics that basically require the batteries to be removed are generally discouraged because they are significantly anachronistic. Utilizing more advanced components such as light sensors and microphones are very anachronistic and, at best, would be "magical" within the game; "magical" traps are not part of the rules other than Warder Glyph.