Usefulness of Alchemy -- I have questions.

[Amber-Rose]

I've been NPCing for a while but I'll be going to an event as a player character for the first time at the end of the month. I have spent a lot of time figuring out what types of combat I enjoy, but there are a lot of parts about putting together a PC that has me nervous. Leveling up is such a slow process, and build points are so precious, that I don't want to make any goofs that'll haunt me for the rest of this character's life.

The question I have come to ask you nice people here is: Is alchemy worth it?

I'm building a duel-wielding rogue, and I don't want to give my character a little versatility, since you can't always get up behind your opponents. I thought that gass globes might be the way to do that. The ability to stockpile gasses is also a major selling point for me. However, I know it can be kind of pricey (both in BP and gold) and that its use can be limited. I was hoping to gather some opinions from PCs with experience before I make my decision.

(And yes, I know that I can remake the character after the first event, but I want to know what people thought about the long-term usefulness of having alchemy.)

Thank you for you time,
Amber-Rose

 

[Inaryn]

I bought 3 levels of alchemy with my earth templar so that I could throw gasses.

 

[Amber-Rose]

I bought 3 levels of alchemy with my earth templar so that I could throw gasses.

And you feel it was worth the expenditure? Is your primary source for gasses your own production ability, or ones you gather as loot?

 

[Inaryn]

Gather as loot or purchase from others. And I wouldn't trade that 2.5 levels for the prof if you paid me.

 

[OrcFighterFTW]

Yes, worth it in most settings. Instant takedowns like sleep and paralysis gases are beastly. I'm getting alchemy for my healer. The downside to alchemy is that it only works on creatures with metabolism, so if your chapter has a lot of undead or creatures not affected by it, and you see this lack of targets over time, talk to your local plot team. As you level up and begin to acquire gold, the cost really isn't that bad for what you get compared to other crafts.

 

[Draven]

Amber, does Yes #1 imply that you're spending more than three purchases?

 

[Muir]

Edit : Wow, that got long. Please don't take this as me suggesting character optimization is mandatory, I just suggest thinking about it in those terms for alchemy especially as it can be very frustrating to flush significant amounts of gold on effects that are not, well, effective.

I would say that the usefulness of alchemy is heavily dependent on two factors.

Firstly, the overall scaling of your campaign. In most of the games I play, I find that the things that I would want to use a one-shot takeout effect gas on have cloaks/banes/dodges/resists to prevent them from being easily one-shotted. Your local sense of scaling and style of plot will make that vary, though, as some games prefer to just pop more enemies rather than make single pops last longer.

Secondly, how comfortable you are being coin-fed. Alchemy is expensive, no matter which way you look at it. It can make you fight well above what your APL would suggest, but at the cost of burning through your treasure resources a lot faster than you otherwise would. How effective this will be will depend on your local treasure economy. If you're in a high APL chapter that has a huge treasure policy to drop, and doesn't drop most of it in components and formal scrolls, you can stand to be a bit more coin-fed than in a lower APL chapter where you're burning a gold worth of gasses to kill things that drop a few silver. Also consider your long term plan for the character. At the end of the day, you are likely going to eventually want magic items, and it is difficult to get the resources for them if you're constantly investing all of your hard-earned loot back into expendable tools for takedowns.

My answer so far is yes.

I play a gypsy rogue who has alchemy. However, I don't have enough ranks to actually produce it, because it is just too expensive in terms of build to makeanything you really want to carry around. Anything past the 3 ranks needed for throwing gasses is build that could more profitably be getting you backstabs or dodges.

The sweet spot for me as a rogue alchemist, though, is Vorpal Coatings. Almost nothing in the game will burn defenses against straight damage, or resist it. Since the rules change a few years ago to allow backstabs to work with archery, rocking a ranged rogue for providing damage to your party is very viable. How it works out for me is thus :

Heavy Crossbow : Base 4 damage
4 x Backstab : + 4 damage
Serious Vorpal Coating : +10 damage

So in total, I can throw for 18 damage from my heavy crossbow, which is pretty significant in the APL ~20 games I play in.

Now for the cost. I'm going to assume 100% markup on things as a worst-case scenario.

Setup :
Heavy Crossbow : 15 production, or roughly 3 silver market price.
Alchemy Workshop : 10 gold

Expendable :
Serious Vorpal Coating : 20 production, or 4 silver market price.
Bolts : .5 production, or 1 copper each market price

With a workshop, each coating can be applied to two bolts, bringing us to a total market price of 2 silver 1 copper per coated bolt. For base 14 damage, which averages out to about 1.5 copper per point of damage. Not a bad thing to have on hand, and when you don't want to burn coin on an enemy you can throw 8's from the front all day when you can't get into position to lay down backstabs with your melee weapons.

That said, I do carry a few gasses, but primarily for fighting other characters, as they are a lot less likely to have stacked resists, and a good paralysis or sleep gas will stop a berserk before the bodies start to stack up.

 

[Alavatar]

For Rogues, I almost always recommend having at least Alchemy 3 since it adds another dynamic to the character they can fall back on.

You haven't mentioned what level you will be, though, and what skills you would take in lieu of Alchemy if you did not have it. I suggest putting it as an "either <-> or" type of evaluation.

Worst case scenario just pick a direction for your first event to try it. Since you can rebuild your character after your first event PCing it is risk free. Also, after playing your character for an event you would likely have a better idea on what skills would be more advantageous to you in the near-term.

 

[Egor]

Alchemy is quite possibly the most useful thing for taking down PC characters. Most PC's are not prepared to deal with an onslaught of Alchemy unless they have natural resistance to it. This is mostly the same for NPC'S with player stats.

It can be one of the most powerful weapons when used correctly.

 

[norman b]

As someone who has played with alchemy as a rogue, it is not entirely worth it. It very heavily depends on what you are fighting. In the chapter I play in, alchemy is really useful, but the previous plot line there, not so much. But that being said, there are like 12 alchemists in Seattle (maybe a few less), which makes getting your hands on alchemy a bit tough.

Would I trade in Alchemy for a back stab? Yes. Would everyone? No.

 

[Amber-Rose]

First off: Thank you everyone for your input! I was not expecting this kind of response. I have to say, Alliance really does have a very friendly and helpful community, which is very nice to see.

The general consensus seems to be "do it, but beware the cost". I was very worried I was making a rookie mistake and it is very nice to hear that it is a viable option. I think I will build my character with alchemy (assuming I have sufficient BP to do so, which I believe I will) and give it a go. Worst comes to worst, I can re-spec her after my first game.

Amber, does Yes #1 imply that you're spending more than three purchases?

The #1 yes was mean more as a "I don't have an opinion on whether you should make them or find them" option.

Edit : Wow, that got long. Please don't take this as me suggesting character optimization is mandatory, I just suggest thinking about it in terms of alchemy especially as it can be very frustrating to flush significant amounts of gold on effects that are not, well, effective.

It wasn't long at all! It was thorough, and I appreciate that. I had been focused more on things like sleep gasses, hadn't actually considered using Vorpal Coatings, since I'm looking to go melee rather than ranged, but you have me reevaluation my options.

You haven't mentioned what level you will be, though, and what skills you would take in lieu of Alchemy if you did not have it.

Not entirely sure yet -- waiting to hear back from logistics. Assuming I have the points, and I don't get alchemy, I would probably purchase another Backstab.

As someone who has played with alchemy as a rogue, it is not entirely worth it. It very heavily depends on what you are fighting. In the chapter I play in, alchemy is really useful, but the previous plot line there, not so much. But that being said, there are like 12 alchemists in Seattle (maybe a few less), which makes getting your hands on alchemy a bit tough.

Would I trade in Alchemy for a back stab? Yes. Would everyone? No.

I can see where the kind of campaign you're playing in could make a big difference. I NPC in Seattle and I was playing an awful lot of undead for a while there. (I will be going to Oregon to PC.) This is very useful feedback, particularly considering it is the first real "no". Perhaps when I get to Oregon I will find that it just isn't a good fit. I guess that is the nice thing about starting a character with enough extra BP that I can actually give it a try before I get locked in.

 

[Draven]

I'd also like to add the following:

I was considering making a scout for my secondary, because I wanted Alchemy, but I also prefer Weapon Profs to Backstab. I decided, instead, to go Fighter with Alchemy, because the cost was only an extra 4 BP for Herbal Lore and Alchemy 3 (Consider that the Read/Write cost for Rogues and Fighters is the same).

That's not such a big difference in the long run, really. If you plan on having 20 levels of Alchemy, that's definitely something, but if you end up only getting a little bit? You might not even necessarily want to be a rogue.

 

[Amber-Rose]

I'd also like to add the following:

I was considering making a scout for my secondary, because I wanted Alchemy, but I also prefer Weapon Profs to Backstab. I decided, instead, to go Fighter with Alchemy, because the cost was only an extra 4 BP for Herbal Lore and Alchemy 3 (Consider that the Read/Write cost for Rogues and Fighters is the same).

That's not such a big difference in the long run, really. If you plan on having 20 levels of Alchemy, that's definitely something, but if you end up only getting a little bit? You might not even necessarily want to be a rogue.

The ability to attack from all angles rather than just behind does appeal to me, but I know that I also want to be able to get ledgermain, which goes up rather significantly between the classes if I'm not mistake (I don't have access to the PDF at this moment to check). I have definitely been looking at possibly building my character as a fighter instead.

 

[norman b]

Not to get into too much "specializing", but a hobbling scout would give you decently cheap weapon profs, back stabs, legerdemain, and alchemy. Also a racial dodge and resist poisons for when your alchemy comes back at you. But those dang side burns!

 

[norman b]

Oh, also the double read/write for races hurts alchemy particularly since that starting build is tough to justify spending.

 

[Draven]

That's true.

Two-W Fighting and Florentine costs 4 less as a Fighter, but Legerdemain costs you 6 more, so it comes down to whether you'd rather save 6 BP to be able to attack at all angles and get the fighter body/armor options. To me, it ends up being worth it in the long run (especially if you end up using Archery, because 1.5 Weapon Prof damage).

A point of note: A 16th level Fighter would have netted an additional 32 body, where a 16th level rogue would have only netted an additional 20 Body.

 

[MaxIrons]

As someone whose current character is a coin-operated wizard (20 Levels of Craft Scroll, 20 levels of Craftsman) you have to ask yourself what you're giving up in terms of specialization for that versatility. The ability to decide on any given game day that I'd rather have 40 Stone Bolts available to me instead of 5 Reflect Magics or something in between is huge. That's what going deep into Alchemy gives you. Otherwise you spend a lot of energy (or coin) building a stockpile so that you have that Death Elixir for that one weird time you really need it when your full time Alchemist buddy can pop one out at logistics. If you're looking to stick to a few gasses/vorpal coatings and want that extra threat on the field, go 3 Alchemy. If you are looking to be Batman with something in your Bat Utility Belt for any occasion, go deep into production.

 

[Durnic]

Sometimes you gotta buy a mod. Alchemy does that. Pew pew.