Weapon type clarification?

[Sheakhan]

So, waiting for clarification here before I get too involved, but would something like this be considered a dagger or a shield for purposes of weapon skill requirements?

The dagger alone is within short-weapon length requirements, and functionally complete already (i don't want to graft anything to it until I know if I can use it)

For precedence, this is modeled after an existing weapon called the Madu, as evidenced here:

It also has a larp precedent here:

Admittedly, mine is a single blade, but I would just like to know which skill would be required to wield it as intended. (IE, calling damage)

Intuition says that it would simply be considered a dagger with a large hand-guard, but it also could be construed as a buckler. The issue I find with the latter, is that if it is classified as a shield it creates some awful implications when you start discussing calling damage with the striking edges.

 

[Draven]

I'd say at best, it's a shield that you'll take damage for whenever someone hits the ends.

At worst, it doesn't clear at all.

I, personally, wouldn't clear it as a marshal. But it definitely wouldn't be a legal weapon to strike with.

 

[Simon]

I have seen these kinds of weapons rejected for use in this game repeatedly for many years, so yeah...no go.

Joe Siegel
Weapons Marshal, NJ, GB, HQ

 

[Inaryn]

Both madus that are in use out here are shields and tagged as such. No stabby (as that becomes shield bashing.)

 

[Sheakhan]

So with that in mind, at what point, exactly, does a hand guard or basket hilt stop being acceptable and become a shield? Historically speaking, you find some pretty flamboyantly oversized guards, but with safety and the spirit of the rules in mind, where precisely is the line drawn?

 

[MaxIrons]

Well, there are a couple of things going on with this. The first is that Alliance only has one type of double ended weapon, the staff. The second is that the answer to your question is basically up to the discretion of the marshal involved. Third, there is no way in Alliance to have a shield and a weapon in use at the same time in one hand. With a little bit of work what you have could be changed into a shield, but you can never have something that is a shield and also can hit someone.

A better way of looking at the question is that hand guards on a weapon should only do that, guard the hand. Since a hand holding a weapon is already considered a non-damaging area to be struck in, hand guards are decorative in Alliance and have no specific in game effect. If your hand guard is protecting more than your hand, it's a shield. There is no precise line exactly, unlike weapon lengths, because weapons and shields are supposed to be separate things, never the twain to meet.

 

[Draven]

The biggest kind of hilt I'd ever clear on a weapon in terms of surface area is a basket hilt. Anything bigger than that isn't designed for the Alliance system, and is cheesing.

You can't use a buckler shield while using an off hand weapon, either.

 

[Simon]

The spirit of the rule as I understand it is that a shield and a weapon are entirely different things. If you are thinking how your hilt could almost (or actually) be a shield then you are likely in violation of the spirit of the rules. Historical precedence on weapons as little to actually do with anything in this rule system other that most of us think historical swords are neat. Too much of the how things were used are not allowed (think shields as weapons) and we have singular weapon types which prohibit hybrid weapons (Like a Luceren Hammer with a blunt piece, a piercing piece and a stabby piece)

All that said a Basket hit is not a problem, but the guideline should be for something just about big enough for your gloved hand with the material being no thicker than a single layer of pipe foam, though camp pad would be easier. This leads you towards something that looks like a cutlass or the kind of sword the Black Watch carried in the American Revolution.

Joe Siegel

 

[Sheakhan]

Well, I'm glad I asked before continuing. Thanks for the butt ton of responses!

Has there ever been talk of a buckler skill? On one hand, bucklers are distinctly less advantageous than full shields, much like small weapons compared to short or long. (hence the skill cost, I'd imagine.) It'd seem like there'd be a cheaper skill allowing bucklers or even main gauches/armored gauntlets (for blocking).

On the second hand, as I've observed here and in previous Nero type larps, full shields get used as gigantic unwieldy bucklers anyhow due to their light weight.

 

[Draven]

That's probably a question best posed to Rules Theory, so non-Marshals can take part in it.

 

[Sheakhan]

Good idea!