Searching, Stealing, and Trap Rules

llywelyn

llywelyn

Apprentice
I've seen a few questions come up around this recently, so I wanted to post a few general clarifications:

Searching:
  • Searching does not require a 3-count (it's "I search you," ARB 147), but the process is not instantaneous. The amount of time it takes for the person to dig the materials out from inside of their clothing is the amount of time it takes. So if you get attacked while you are searching, you are still in-game.
  • You should be kneeling next to them with (generally) a hand on their shoulder when you say "I search you."
  • If someone takes a magic item from you when searching, give them the item and not the tag. Turn the tag over to the Mage's Guild as soon as you are able: They are taking it from you, they should pay to get it identified.
Cabins:
  • Every entrance to your cabin is an entrance unless you have some sort of effect which blocks that entrance in play (e.g., a ward). This means that if you do not have a ward (or something else that renders it specifically out of game) then your back door is an in-game entrance.
  • Every cabin should have a set of marshal notes immediately inside of the cabin door, even if there's nothing on them. If someone goes to steal from the cabin they will enter the cabin (to set off any relevant traps) and then a rogue marshal will follow immediately behind and check the marshal notes. If you do not reside in a cabin, you don't get to read the marshal notes. Trap cards, cast spells, etc go with the marshal notes along with comments on any areas that are being designated OOG outside of the standard locations.
Stealing:
  • Gas globes are in game items (ARB, pg 109). If you steal gas globes, you can either ask the individual for tags or come get a rogue marshal to talk to the owner and get the tags for you.
  • If you take a weapon you must take the entire weapon and bring it immediately to NPC camp where a marshal will contact the original owner (ARB pg 147). Two things can happen then: 1. The original owner will ask that the thief keep the rep until the end of the event, in which case you get to figure out how to hide the weapon or 2. you will get the tag that was attached to the weapon and the rep will be returned to the original owner. This applies to a lot of things that are themselves valuable (e.g., if your armor is stolen from you then you do not need to turn over the phys rep, but you can't recognize the armor later if you do this, either way you'll get the phys rep back by the end of the event, ARB pg 147).
  • If a spell book is being stolen only the tag may be taken unless it has the words "This book is stealable" (ARB pg 147) in them (on the same page tag so that it will be seen, ARB pg 99). Then the entire book must be taken.
  • If you are going to steal from a cabin you need a rogue marshal present or the cabin needs to be occupied by someone other than you (ARB pg 147) who is a resident of the cabin. This includes if you happen to reside in that cabin and you are stealing from another member.
  • You need a rogue marshal present if you are going to steal from a circle under the same basic rules as cabins (ARB 1.2 pg 130), including if you are invested in that circle (this is to help marshal things such as Circle Lock and to make sure things like the OOG undiscovered-magic-item tags in the Mage's Guild aren't taken). It also helps us streamline when someone shows up and makes a cheating accusation because their items disappeared (to be clear, this hasn't happened yet, but I have seen this occur in other LARPs).
  • Stealing in public, of course, does not require a marshal present. Based on what you steal, however, you may then still immediately thereafter be talking to a marshal.

Traps:
  • To check for traps you actually have to check for traps. Yourself. You can't ask a marshal "is this trapped?" (ARB pg 10)
  • Putting a chair in front of a door or hanging a bell is not a "noisemaker trap." Noisemaker traps are generally electronic to simulate the actual noise and the noise they make is the noise they make.
  • Traps can generally be disarmed through any mechanism that prevents them from doing whatever the signal is for setting them off (flash of light, noise, etc; ARB pg 145) and which does not damage the trap in a way that requires more than a few minutes or requires a tool (ARB pg 146). This means that you can put your hand down on the mousetrap if that will keep it from going off. The exception to this are electrical wires (ARB pg 23), which cannot be cut but have to be disarmed through some other means (and need to be disarmable through some other means).
  • This also implies that it doesn't matter what sets off the trap. It could be anything or nothing and will affect you even if nothing obvious tripped it. If it goes off and you are in range… then you are in range.
Changelog
  • Added a page citation from the ARB for the stealing from a circle rules (15 August 2015).
 
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Can't cut electrical wires was a surprise to me. Is there an ARB page on that one? Seen a lot of wire traps and that details was definitely news to me. I'm good with that, but surprised. :)
 
PirateFox said:
Can't cut electrical wires was a surprise to me. Is there an ARB page on that one? Seen a lot of wire traps and that details was definitely news to me. I'm good with that, but surprised. :)
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Updated to include the ARB reference since in the grand tradition of the ARB it isn't on the same page as the other trap rules, it's page 23:

It is fine to cut strings and fishing wires to disarm a trap, but you may never cut electrical wires. All electri- cal devices are out-of-game and are merely there to represent gears or other items that may set off the trap. You cannot pretend to cut these wires.
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The last we had heard from Jesse, Back doors for cabins were specifically out of game. Has that changed or can you clarify where that confusion may have come from?
 
SorinKatt said:
The last we had heard from Jesse, Back doors for cabins were specifically out of game. Has that changed or can you clarify where that confusion may have come from?
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They are out of game if and only if you have something that specifically makes them out of game. Examples are wards and wizard locks which are cast with only a single entrance (unless you have multiple casters and deliberately set them up with multiple entrances, see ARB pg 125). If you do, then that's an out of game door.

I wasn't there for whenever the original information was disseminated, but I suspect that there was a mixup at one point or another over whether they counted as doors in a warded building, to which the answer is "no." If your building is unwarded, however, then a door is a door (and a window that can open is a window, for that matter, ARB pg 87).
 
Wards are in-game a single entrance? so does that mean that we cannot have people ICly entering tavern in the rear anymore? Also, is there any symbol or anything for 'Warded, please use other door'
 
NightEyes said:
Wards are in-game a single entrance? so does that mean that we cannot have people ICly entering tavern in the rear anymore? Also, is there any symbol or anything for 'Warded, please use other door'
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The tavern is not warded and if at any point the tavern were to be warded it is a large enough building as to require so many casters that the extra entrances aren't a problem, so no worries there. If you are referring to the back room then presumably it is cast with multiple casters (ARB pg 125). Viable entrances are marked with a W. If it doesn't have a W and the area is warded, then either it isn't a viable entrance or the ward is invalid for not meeting the requirements.
 
Thanks for doing this, David, there's a lot of this that I didn't even know I was unclear about!

llywelyn said:
Searching does not require a 3-count (it's "I search you," ARB 147), but the process is not instantaneous. The amount of time it takes for the person to dig the materials out from inside of their clothing is the amount of time it takes. So if you get attacked while you are searching, you are still in-game.
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I've heard that if you're in the habit of hiding your nice things all over your person, it's acceptable to ask someone, when searching you, to describe their search or physically roleplay it with consent. Is that correct? It always seemed unfair for someone to be able to say "I search you" and get things that were stashed in places they might never have thought to look.

llywelyn said:
Gas globes are in game items (ARB, pg 109). If you steal gas globes, you can either ask the individual for tags or come get a rogue marshal to talk to the owner and get the tags for you.
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Gas Globes: That means orange packets can be stolen, right? Since I don't have particular packets designated to specific gasses, how does that work? Let's say that Baroness Elavir picks my pockets and gets two gas globes. When she, or a marshal, or whoever informs me that I've been robbed most nobly, do I just hand over whichever tags I feel like? Are they drawn randomly from all of the gas tags I'm carrying on my person?

llywelyn said:
Putting a chair in front of a door or hanging a bell is not a "noisemaker trap." Noisemaker traps are generally electronic to simulate the actual noise and the noise they make is the noise they make.
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Does this mean that you can't put a bell or a chair on the door, because that's what noisemaker traps are for and you can't make them, or does it mean that you can do it, but it doesn't constitute a trap and the rules about disarming don't apply?
 
Dia said:
I've heard that if you're in the habit of hiding your nice things all over your person, it's acceptable to ask someone, when searching you, to describe their search or physically roleplay it with consent. Is that correct? It always seemed unfair for someone to be able to say "I search you" and get things that were stashed in places they might never have thought to look.
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The short answer is "yes." From the ARB, pg 147—148:

If you are searched, you also have the option of saying, “Describe your search.” The searcher then must describe what he or she is doing to search (“I am looking through your pockets,” “I am searching your cloak,” etc.) This is not only to help you hide items, but it also takes up the time that the search should take. When the searcher asks about a place where an item is hidden, you must turn over the item at that point.
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What I don't know is the granularity on this when it comes to actual secret pockets (since it only covers the case where you don't have a secret pocket). So I have asked. If you both consent to physical roleplay you could also conceivably ask them to actual perform their search, but this isn't required for either party.


Dia said:
Gas Globes: That means orange packets can be stolen, right? Since I don't have particular packets designated to specific gasses, how does that work? Let's say that Baroness Elavir picks my pockets and gets two gas globes. When she, or a marshal, or whoever informs me that I've been robbed most nobly, do I just hand over whichever tags I feel like? Are they drawn randomly from all of the gas tags I'm carrying on my person?
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Drawn randomly. From ARB pg 109:

If you have more tags than the gas globe phys reps that were stolen, the tags must be turned over in a random fashion.
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Dia said:
Does this mean that you can't put a bell or a chair on the door, because that's what noisemaker traps are for and you can't make them, or does it mean that you can do it, but it doesn't constitute a trap and the rules about disarming don't apply?
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The latter. From the ARB pg 146:

Noisemaker: Alarms and noisemakers are traps that do no damage but set off loud alarms.
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A bell of the sort shopkeepers have used forever is not a "trap," but it also doesn't require legerdemain to manipulate it. This device is more like a noisemaker trap, or conceivably if the bell was attached to an actual triggering mechanism with a spring or piece of string.
 
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Since this is somewhat related... one other thing; Since some cabins have doors that swing in, and some that swing out... I assume it's perfectly acceptable to, say, hold a door shut with your own actual strength? Or for those that swing in, to simply brace yourself against the door in order to prevent people/monsters from gaining entry? Obviously if a monster has extreme strength and they wrench the door open somehow you have to roll with it, but I just wanted to make sure that was acceptable.
 
Zack, I don't recall ever saying that... if I did, I must have assumed you meant on a warded cabin and that the other door is not accessible. Sorry for the confusion.
Tyler- yes you can hold it shut with your own physical strenght, however a simple hobgoblin with +1 can say monster strength and you must allow it to open.
Also, use common sense... if two pcs are fighting over the door... and damage the door, I'm going to kick both your asses! LOL
 
Jesse Grabowski said:
Zack, I don't recall ever saying that... if I did, I must have assumed you meant on a warded cabin and that the other door is not accessible. Sorry for the confusion.
Tyler- yes you can hold it shut with your own physical strenght, however a simple hobgoblin with +1 can say monster strength and you must allow it to open.
Also, use common sense... if two pcs are fighting over the door... and damage the door, I'm going to kick both your asses! LOL
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Just to be clear Jesse, I didn't receive it from you directly, I heard it from multiple sources second hand which was the reason for the clarification request=)
 
So uh... If there's a sword weapon trap in a doorway, and I'm standing say... Fifty feet away behind a tree and Chuck a throwing hammer, setting off the trap, due to the wording of weapon traps that sword trap magically shoots out fifty feet, curves around the tree, and ganks me?
 
Sheakhan said:
So uh... If there's a sword weapon trap in a doorway, and I'm standing say... Fifty feet away behind a tree and Chuck a throwing hammer, setting off the trap, due to the wording of weapon traps that sword trap magically shoots out fifty feet, curves around the tree, and ganks me?
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Essentially yes, but that is really a question better suited for the Marshal's Forum or Rules Discussion.
 
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Actually this did get clarified some time ago in Rules Discussion when I posted asking about traps. As to weapon-traps, you do actually have to be struck by the weapon for it to work, this is clarified in another section of the book (baaaaad formatting). But yeah, weapon traps, must touch you, with the weapon making it, for it to do the thing. All other kinds of traps do affect you if you are touching the thing you are setting off the trap with however- weapon ones are the exception.

As to throwing stuff to set off traps- as long as you are outside the range (whatever it says in the book, I forget) and you THROW the thing you are setting the trap off with, you're fine. So long as you are not TOUCHING the thing you ae setting the trap off with, when you set off the tap (and are outside of range). This too is a product of terrible formatting and contradicts other information in the book- a couple of people did agree this needs fixing to a degree, but it is what it is for the moment till next edition I guess.
 
But weapon traps don't actually have to strike the person who triggered them?
 
B.Barber said:
Actually this did get clarified some time ago when I posted asking about traps. As to weapon-traps, you do actually have to be struck by the weapon for it to work, this is clarified in another section of the book (baaaaad formatting). But yeah, weapon traps, must touch you, with the weapon making it, for it to do the thing.
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As specified by the weapon trap rules, ARB pg 145:

Out-of-game, the trap merely has to have a standard trap trigger (a light or noisemaker) and a weapon with a valid item tag must be attached.

The weapon does not have to actually spring forward and hit you for the trap to be effective.
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If there's a contradictory ruling on this, I have yet to see it.

B.Barber said:
As to throwing stuff to set off traps- as long as you are outside the range (whatever it says in the book, I forget) and you THROW the thing you are setting the trap off with, you're fine. So long as you are not TOUCHING the thing you ae setting the trap off with, when you set off the tap (and are outside of range). This too is a product of terrible formatting a throwback to an earlier system, but it is what it is.
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This does not strictly apply to certain categories of traps, specifically weapon traps and mechanical traps (ARB 145) which do not follow AOE rules in the same sense.
 
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