Experiences of a Fighter in 2.0

[Tevas]

Not under the new martially delivered Disarm or Shatter rules, unfortunately. I'm looking that up right now though, and if I see otherwise, will edit accordingly.

From the 0.9 document:

Last but not least, Shatter and Disarm are changed so that when weapon-delivered they automatically target whatever they happen to hit - no specific target is required in this case (or allowed). The skill versions are changed to only work for one single swing, not "until landed", due to this change.

 

[Tevas]

Also, this is speculation, but I believe that wands do not provide "hand coverage" like a weapon does, where something that hits a hand is considered to have hit the weapon. So a weapon delivered Disarm that hits your hand when you're using a sword would Disarm the sword. One that hits your hand when you're using a wand would not Disarm the wand.

 

[Alavatar]

In terms of offense, though, the Steelsoul gets almost nothing.

I am not sure you have taken into account a Steelsoul's synergy with the Fighter skills. For 96 XP in Fighter Skills (3 Weapon Prof, 3 Parry, 3 Slay, and 3 Improved Slay (alternatively, the 3 Slay/Improved Slay could be spent on 2 Eviscerate, 2 Stun Limb, and 2 Resolute)), +50 for Steelsoul 5, the offense gained translates those +3 Profs to +3 Wand Damage; that Wand Damage is the equivalent to 150 Scholar XP so the Wand Damage is identical to going full scholar.

In addition, their OHE damage is at the secondary glass ceiling of swinging 5 (since people are saying 5 and 10 are the expected glass ceilings for melee damage).

In fact, if the goal is higher Wand Damage (granted at fewer packets) it is cheaper to be a Spellsword Steelsoul and get Profs than to be a scholar. And with the synergy of Elemental Burst, Evocation, and Take-out Spells, in conjunction with the significant defensive capabilities provided by the Celestial Spells, High Magic, and Steelsoul abilities, one could argue the Steelsoul will have better DPS output than a typical equivalent level fighter on any other Paragon path.

 

[Avaran]

hand coverage

As far as I know, only valid melee Weapons that you can physically attack with are covered by the "hand coverage" rule. Wands would not a valid melee weapon (and can be a stick FFS), so they would NOT provide this.

I am a Marshal.

 

[Inaryn]

Not under the new martially delivered Disarm or Shatter rules, unfortunately. I'm looking that up right now though, and if I see otherwise, will edit accordingly.

From the 0.9 document:

Last but not least, Shatter and Disarm are changed so that when weapon-delivered they automatically target whatever they happen to hit - no specific target is required in this case (or allowed). The skill versions are changed to only work for one single swing, not "until landed", due to this change.

That is something that should be fixed then. I like the new Disarm/Shatter mechanic, but you should absolutely be allowed to call a target for purposes of what would actually be an illegal target to actually hit.

 

[mikestrauss]

I am not sure you have taken into account a Steelsoul's synergy with the Fighter skills. For 96 XP in Fighter Skills (3 Weapon Prof, 3 Parry, 3 Slay, and 3 Improved Slay (alternatively, the 3 Slay/Improved Slay could be spent on 2 Eviscerate, 2 Stun Limb, and 2 Resolute)), +50 for Steelsoul 5, the offense gained translates those +3 Profs to +3 Wand Damage; that Wand Damage is the equivalent to 150 Scholar XP so the Wand Damage is identical to going full scholar.

In addition, their OHE damage is at the secondary glass ceiling of swinging 5 (since people are saying 5 and 10 are the expected glass ceilings for melee damage).

In fact, if the goal is higher Wand Damage (granted at fewer packets) it is cheaper to be a Spellsword Steelsoul and get Profs than to be a scholar. And with the synergy of Elemental Burst, Evocation, and Take-out Spells, in conjunction with the significant defensive capabilities provided by the Celestial Spells, High Magic, and Steelsoul abilities, one could argue the Steelsoul will have better DPS output than a typical equivalent level fighter on any other Paragon path.

I think you might have missed something really important that I talked about in my initial post. That +3 profs = +3 wand damage stops working the moment you suffer a single point of damage (specifically, armor damage). It is literally a front-loaded, alpha strike ability. Unless your opponent is dealing exclusively body damage, you will lose it long before most battles end. So, as I said before, and will repeat now, that build only translates from 3 profs to 3 wand damage for a portion of the fight (a short portion if you are anywhere near the front lines).

Effectively, you are either taking advantage of the armor you paid that 150 XP for or you are taking advantage of the wand benefit, but you can never take advantage of both benefits at the same time.

-MS

 

[Alavatar]

I think you might have missed something really important that I talked about in my initial post. That +3 profs = +3 wand damage stops working the moment you suffer a single point of damage (specifically, armor damage). It is literally a front-loaded, alpha strike ability. Unless your opponent is dealing exclusively body damage, you will lose it long before most battles end. So, as I said before, and will repeat now, that build only translates from 3 profs to 3 wand damage for a portion of the fight (a short portion if you are anywhere near the front lines).

Effectively, you are either taking advantage of the armor you paid that 150 XP for or you are taking advantage of the wand benefit, but you can never take advantage of both benefits at the same time.

-MS

Since the Steelsoul gives 5 Mend Armor by Wand Charge, the time they won't be able to restore their ablative armor is when they are engaged in melee. When they are engaged in melee they likely won't be using Wand charges. Also note that the Steelsoul won't need to put away their Wand and switch to a melee weapon since they will be able to channel Wand charges through their "bonded" weapon.

 

[mikestrauss]

True. However, every wand charge you use to repair armor is one fewer you have to deal damage and you are already missing 140 XP worth of charges (approximately 50) and also have fewer charges because scholars pay less for both spell slots and formal. Any way you cut it, Steelsoul represents trading a significant decrease in damage for an increase in defense. That is the point I was making in my initial post and nothing you have pointed out negates that. I even fully acknowledged that it offers an alpha strike option to restore a portion of that damage loss, but that only helps so much.

-MS

 

[Alavatar]

and also have fewer charges because scholars pay less for both spell slots and formal.

This is irrelevant since Wand charges/damage are based on XP spent. Whether it is at Scholar cost or Spellsword cost makes no difference, only the amount of XP spent in that "field".

Any way you cut it, Steelsoul represents trading a significant decrease in damage for an increase in defense. That is the point I was making in my initial post and nothing you have pointed out negates that. I even fully acknowledged that it offers an alpha strike option to restore a portion of that damage loss, but that only helps so much.

-MS

Your assertion is that a Fighter is better DPS.

My point is that Steelsoul is better DPS than the Fighter because of (a) Wand damage equivalent to a Scholar, (b) Burst DPS due to Elemental Burst, Evocation, (c) take-out spells, and (d) reactive defensive abilities [auto-Karma on Spells stopped by a Guard], while maintaining consistent weapon damage at the second-tier glass ceiling (5 OHE damage). All of this while also having amazing defense. (The value of 65 Armor without being encumbered hasn't even been talked about)

Admittedly, if you compare the Steelsoul to a full C-Scholar with OHE and Shield you could probably argue the full C-Scholar is better DPS than either the Fighter or the Steelsoul simply by virtue of having 3-4 more spell columns (assuming a Paragon path is still chosen).

 

[mikestrauss]

Point agreed to on the cost for spells/formals not mattering (I misunderstood that part), but that was the lesser point by a far margin. The nearly 50 charges lost to fighter skills + paragon path is far from non-trivial.

And my assertion still stands. Scholar level of wand damage is temporary and muted by having 50 fewer charges (a massive loss at the minimum level for full paragon path and still pretty significant even into the 30s). That auto-Karma ability is also temporary based on the exact same limitation. In the average wave battle or module, both abilities are lost quickly. They may be regained through armor repair, but only at the cost of DPS. And while non-encumbrance is a virtue, fighters don't actually need the full 62 available to them in order to have more total points (body + armor) than templars. The 65 armor is a catch-up mechanism to make templars roughly equivalent to fighters in terms of total points. The average fighter can match or better that total with armor that offers minimal encumbrance (microchain shirt, tin bracers and leg guards).

What that means is that you have a character that is either dealing scholar level wand damage with roughly half as many charges for a short time, before downgrading to templar level wand damage or you have a character that is dealing templar level melee damage. BOTH are lower damage than an equal level fighter. And, while some fights will highlight the excellent ability of the Steelsoul to guard against take-out effects, the average fight simply won't. In the average fighter, the fighter is dealing roughly twice the damage and can survive roughly the same level of beat down.

Note 1: I know the modern game is flush with take-out effects on the NPC side. But that should decrease massively if these rules are passed (heck, even if just the magic item part of these rules are passed). I played in the game long before magic items dominated the field (and before high magic existed). Plot teams were very careful about how many take-out effects were released both in any given fight and across the weekend. That care in scaling was required for game balance. When magic items go away as we know them (I say when, not if on this point), that same care in scaling will naturally re-emerge. Heck, I expect in some games (Denver, for example) it will take almost no time to re-emerge, because I know that game is owned by someone who played during that pre-MI, pre-HM era.

Note 2: A level 25 (roughly the minimum level to be a Steelsoul) scholar maxes out at 6 wand damage (more likely to be at 5 if the character has even a handful of non-scholar skills... like racials, for instance). A level 25 templar is looking at a max out of about 3 wand damage when armor is damaged (6 while armor is undamaged). A level 25 fighter can swing for 10 damage (204 build) and still have plenty of leftover build for other skills (max out is 11 damage for a one handed weapon). In short, even at max out, the templar is dealing roughly half the damage with a weapon, roughly half the damage with a wand during alpha strike time, and roughly 1/3 the damage with a wand the rest of the time. And the above assumes a one-handed weapon fighter. An archer / 2-handed weapon fighter is at 15 damage (technically the archer is limited by arrow supply, but arrows can be horded between weekends, unlike wand charges).

I'll repeat an earlier statement. I love the Steelsoul on modules. I think the fit of a Steelsoul on the average module is frighteningly efficient. But, over a 24 hour period, where battles come in all different shapes and sizes and varieties, I think the fighter simply has better DPS.

-MS

 

[Shades]

Note 1: I know the modern game is flush with take-out effects on the NPC side. But that should decrease massively if these rules are passed (heck, even if just the magic item part of these rules are passed). I played in the game long before magic items dominated the field (and before high magic existed). Plot teams were very careful about how many take-out effects were released both in any given fight and across the weekend. That care in scaling was required for game balance. When magic items go away as we know them (I say when, not if on this point), that same care in scaling will naturally re-emerge. Heck, I expect in some games (Denver, for example) it will take almost no time to re-emerge, because I know that game is owned by someone who played during that pre-MI, pre-HM era.
-MS

Based on the current magic item proposal, I do not expect the number of takeouts to drop significantly, but to perhaps shift more toward spells (instead of elemental and poison). It is possible that other changes may cause this to happen Since a 30th level fighter can use spell parry 20 times a day (as it no longer consumes a parry), and a 30th level scholar can use 41 counterspells a day(as it no longer consumes a spell), the number of defensed might drop, but become much more general in regards to spells. In addition, with the changes to ability store, I expect there to be many more dodges/resists on the PC side on day 2.

 

[Gilwing]

Hi David!

I gave my direct response to that reply earlier in the thread: https://alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/experiences-of-a-fighter-in-2-0.35166/page-10#post-283006

Thanks,
Bryan

It wasn't a question Bryan. Fighters can swing 100 and they will still be two spell kills with out magic items (and I don't see this as a problem). It encourages teamwork. Removing magic items will completely encourage teamwork. Just that one step is a complete game changer. Too bad most owners (and arc) doesn't see it that way.

 

[Alavatar]

Point agreed to on the cost for spells/formals not mattering (I misunderstood that part), but that was the lesser point by a far margin. The nearly 50 charges lost to fighter skills + paragon path is far from non-trivial.

I feel like you are glossing over / ignoring impactful aspects and placing unnecessary emphasis on things that don't matter. The point of contention is whether Fighters or Steelsouls do more damage (this is a "Fighters aren't Fightery" thread). The amount of Wand charges a Scholar has vs Spellsword is irrelevant to that discussion, yet you keep bringing it up like it is a huge sacrifice for the Steelsoul. Unless your point is that a C-Scholar is more DPS than a Fighter?

And my assertion still stands. Scholar level of wand damage is temporary and muted by having 50 fewer charges (a massive loss at the minimum level for full paragon path and still pretty significant even into the 30s). That auto-Karma ability is also temporary based on the exact same limitation. In the average wave battle or module, both abilities are lost quickly. They may be regained through armor repair, but only at the cost of DPS. And while non-encumbrance is a virtue, fighters don't actually need the full 62 available to them in order to have more total points (body + armor) than templars. The 65 armor is a catch-up mechanism to make templars roughly equivalent to fighters in terms of total points. The average fighter can match or better that total with armor that offers minimal encumbrance (microchain shirt, tin bracers and leg guards).

Again, the number of Wand charges vs. Scholar is irrelevant. The Steelsoul still has more Wand charges than a Fighter. And I believe you are thinking of different expected combat tactics than I if you believe the benefits of max armor will be lost quickly. And even though your point is that the 65 Armor is a catch-up mechanism it could be argued the Steelsoul gains greater value by using "5 Mend Armor" Wand charges, the Mend Armor spell, or Mend Armor scrolls, none of which an equivalent Fighter would have easy access to.

What that means is that you have a character that is either dealing scholar level wand damage with roughly half as many charges for a short time, before downgrading to templar level wand damage or you have a character that is dealing templar level melee damage. BOTH are lower damage than an equal level fighter. And, while some fights will highlight the excellent ability of the Steelsoul to guard against take-out effects, the average fight simply won't. In the average fighter, the fighter is dealing roughly twice the damage and can survive roughly the same level of beat down.

If we were looking at the minimum and just Steelsoul Wand+Melee vs. Fighter melee in a vacuum, I would agree with you. But the Steelsoul has more DPS options than that which are being completely ignored. Elemental Burst + Evocation + Take-down spells are significant DPS that the Steelsoul has at their disposal.

Note 1: I know the modern game is flush with take-out effects on the NPC side. But that should decrease massively if these rules are passed (heck, even if just the magic item part of these rules are passed). I played in the game long before magic items dominated the field (and before high magic existed). Plot teams were very careful about how many take-out effects were released both in any given fight and across the weekend. That care in scaling was required for game balance. When magic items go away as we know them (I say when, not if on this point), that same care in scaling will naturally re-emerge. Heck, I expect in some games (Denver, for example) it will take almost no time to re-emerge, because I know that game is owned by someone who played during that pre-MI, pre-HM era.

This will vary by chapter and is by no means an expectation. Even if it does come to fruition, the Steelsoul would still prove to be more Fightery than an equivalent Fighter due to the Steelsoul's toolbox of spells with their armor and pipe-swinging as a good secondary option. However I am not sure how this is relevant to the discussion of Fighter DPS vs. Steelsoul DPS.

Note 2: A level 25 (roughly the minimum level to be a Steelsoul) scholar maxes out at 6 wand damage (more likely to be at 5 if the character has even a handful of non-scholar skills... like racials, for instance). A level 25 templar is looking at a max out of about 3 wand damage when armor is damaged (6 while armor is undamaged). A level 25 fighter can swing for 10 damage (204 build) and still have plenty of leftover build for other skills (max out is 11 damage for a one handed weapon). In short, even at max out, the templar is dealing roughly half the damage with a weapon, roughly half the damage with a wand during alpha strike time, and roughly 1/3 the damage with a wand the rest of the time. And the above assumes a one-handed weapon fighter. An archer / 2-handed weapon fighter is at 15 damage (technically the archer is limited by arrow supply, but arrows can be horded between weekends, unlike wand charges).

This is still ignoring the Elemental Burst, Evocation, and Take-out effects at the disposal of the Steelsoul. A Confine+Eviscerate combo by the Steelsoul is practically the ultimate DPS to take out an enemy.

I'll repeat an earlier statement. I love the Steelsoul on modules. I think the fit of a Steelsoul on the average module is frighteningly efficient. But, over a 24 hour period, where battles come in all different shapes and sizes and varieties, I think the fighter simply has better DPS.

-MS

I think we will just need to agree to disagree.

 

[Tevas]

A caster Binding something and a Fighter Slaying or Eviscerating it before it can rip out is teamwork. Both classes benefit together through ability synergy.

Fighters having Spell Shields spammed on them until something slips through and then having status removal effects used to make them functional again before repeating the same cycle feels like resource sponging. It does not feel like teamwork. It feels like a weak link that is a liability and requires constant attention to keep from getting instantaneously dropped.

 

[Avaran]

If you are high enough to have formal magic, you probably have a few banes and cloaks. But those are very limited in number: 1 bane per 3 9th level spells and 1 cloak per 2. Furthermore, they are incredibly specific. If you want to cover every single effect group (binding, alteration, command, eldritch force, necromancy, did I miss any??), you probably only have 1, MAYBE 2, of each per day.

Now that I've had a chance to read your whole post, I would like to point out the following change(s) to HM and Cloaks/Banes in relation to Ritual Use points:

Similarly, High Magic which characters choose when to activate requires Ritual Use points just like these sorts of Magic Items. However, these High Magic abilities are no longer tied to a certain number of 9th level spells or specific spells in memory, giving them much more flexibility.

A 30th level Scholar has 41 Ritual Use "points" that will, if I am reading this correctly, give them the ability to get a great many more Cloaks/Banes, making them far, far more available than in 1.3.

Let me see if I can figure this right:

Every 5 Formal Levels and 2 Ritual Use points, a Scholar can buy:
1 Cloak and 1 Bane.

30 Formal isn't unheard of around here, so that's 6 pair of each and 12 Ritual Use points, which is 6 Cloaks and 6 Banes in addition to 10 Wand Charges (maybe more, I'm not a master Scholar rules person). Or, 15 Cloaks for 15 Ritual Use points and 10 Wand Charges.

For comparison, under 1.3, they would also need...what...eighteen 9th level spells for 6 Banes? And thirty 9-ths for 15 cloaks? I admit I am not super strong on High Magic maths. @Alavatar Could you explain/math this?

Scholars gain additional Ritual Use points at the following rate:

Scholar: 1 Ritual Use every 7 XP [41 uses at 310 total XP]

Now, given this, do you still feel the same? Also keep in mind that the number of effect groups has gone down, making it easier to both cover all of the effect groups AND have multiple for each group.

 

[mikestrauss]

That doesn't noticeably change my analysis of how quickly a scholar falls compared to a fighter (though I do appreciate the updated information about how the rules work). That just means that a character with 30 formal levels (a standard that feels about right from what I have seen) has two backup options per effect group PER DAY when spell defenses aren't available (the five effect groups I previously noted plus evocation).

In general, you have to assume mid to high level characters, whatever class they are, have access to pre-cast defensives (whether by casting them or by using production items), so that evens out. The two "safety net" defenses (per effect group) will last one, maybe two fights, at most. Then they are spent and a caster is pretty much just a fighter that has a slightly easier way to re-up defenses (if those spells are in memory). It is only slightly easier than using a production item (potion, most likely, though some fighters will have the 1-dot celestial because it is so efficient for a relatively minor cost). Though, as I previously noted, it is still generally too slow against the double-tap (because calling the defense and then casting the new spell is slower than casting two spells in a row).

The previous point stands, even if slightly less strongly. Scholars are nearly as susceptible to take-out effects as equal level fighters in the majority of circumstances, particularly if those effects are delivered via some form of double tap. Mid to high level rogues, with a universal defensive skill, really are the kings of avoiding the take-out effect.

Though, in my opinion, the best way to avoid take-out effects has nothing to do with class at all. It is purely based on race. If you want to maximize your ability to avoid take-out effects, play a wylderkin. You potentially have access to Dodge, Resist Magic, Resist Poison, Resist Binding, Resist Necromancy, and Resist Command. Even the least efficient of those two (Necromancy and Command) is a solid defense and a combo like Resist Poison and Resist Binding covers over half the take-out effects in the game (and yes, I know there are even more efficient combos). Even if you aren't a Wylderkin, playing an elf (any variant), dwarf, hobling, high ogre, dryad, or dwarf really helps with survival much more than any class does.

-MS

 

[Avaran]

Interesting. Okay. =)

If you want to maximize your ability to avoid take-out effects, play a wylderkin. You potentially have access to Dodge, Resist Magic, Resist Poison, Resist Binding, Resist Necromancy, and Resist Command. Even the least efficient of those two (Necromancy and Command) is a solid defense and a combo like Resist Poison and Resist Binding covers over half the take-out effects in the game (and yes, I know there are even more efficient combos). Even if you aren't a Wylderkin, playing an elf (any variant), dwarf, hobling, high ogre, dryad, or dwarf really helps with survival much more than any class does.

What about a Scholar who is a Kyn? And what is to stop the Scholar from doing 5 or 10 Cloaks in 1 school (because the campaign is heavy Command, for example) and filling the rest with their racial resist(s)? I realize this makes you weak against the effect groups that you don't pick Cloaks for (Evocation is the least likely given it hits armor first), but depending on campaign/setting, you can sometimes reasonably say, "I won't see <y> effect, so I won't prep a Cloak against it." Class/Race aren't mutually exclusive, either.

 

[mikestrauss]

Even on weekends that focus hard on a specific effect or effect group, I've never known a plot team that didn't throw in a little diversity at various points, usually even a full wave battle that skews towards a different set of effects / groups. So, going all-in on one effect group is kind of like playing the lottery. Also, unless a weekend description is VERY specific, usually you don't have a great sense of the effect group to best defend against until day 2.

But, yes, in that situation, you can kinda swing the odds in your favor (assuming your plot team doesn't suddenly switch things up). I kinda compare it to a good friend of mine that had a dozen Resist Commands. He reached that number over about 20 years of play by following a simple policy. If he got tagged with a command effect that landed on a weekend, he bought a new one at the end of the weekend. Some weekends, he was a god. Most weekends, he had 3 and a 1/2 unused levels. But he enjoyed the rare weekend where he was basically just a walking "no" sign so much that he was okay with that.

-MS

P.S. - Please change evocation above to curse. How the HECK did I forget my favorite effect group, especially when three of the five offensive spells in it are devastating to casters (Silence, Paralysis, Death)?

 

[Paladin of Flame]

Greetings,

Please keep conversations polite and respectful. Some of these comments have bordered on pretty hostile and we want everyone to feel like they can contribute without being attacked. We will be monitoring these discussions more closely.

Thanks for understanding and happy posting!

 

[James Trotta]

We can see how similar scholars and fighter are at avoiding take-outs in playtesting.

The previous point stands, even if slightly less strongly. Scholars are nearly as susceptible to take-out effects as equal level fighters in the majority of circumstances, particularly if those effects are delivered via some form of double tap. Mid to high level rogues, with a universal defensive skill, really are the kings of avoiding the take-out effect.

A few thoughts:

To have fun, fighters usually want to be on the front line. Takeout effects are likely to target people in front. When fighters can't melee, the class is broken.

If (compared to fighters) scholars have better offense and equal defense, then scholars are superior.



Overall, I'm sad to see that not much seems to have changed during my long break from this playtest forum. The rules still seem to say "cast or quit." The new rules still really reward min/maxing. High level players will still get all the glory - I don't see much that helps low levels - just with the new rules, more high levels will be casters.

Any fighter that wants to kill monsters has to crunch numbers and min/max because there is no simple way to build an efficient fighter with profs being so expensive. A few high levels will have min/maxed fighter builds that can do cool stuff like have multiple dodges. A few high level fighters will be totally broken and fit for nothing but drowning their sorrows in the tavern. But with the no alcohol rule still in place, these broken fighters will find little comfort.

And one of the worst things in the whole system, which Mike pointed out, is the impact of race. You want to play a fighter? Choose the right race or have an inferior build. I don't want to feel punished for playing a race I enjoy.