[.10] - Relics impressions

[Draven]

Alternative suggestion:

Relics let you spontaneously swap spells for healing. Relic high magic and/or ritual lets you spontaneously swap spells for Life / Corruption (depending on aspect).

Relics require a hand. Relics require a 3 count to equip.

This means earth casters get to take whatever magic slots they want (happy casters). Earth full casters are better at casting the spells they know (happy class balance).

To your first suggestion, no. Then Earth Casters get expected to save their spells to heal others, which already happens. In today’s world, a thrown Death means a caster wasted a Life, and they get judged for it. Your suggestion would mean they’d be judged for every Spell they use.

I have no issue with Relics requiring a hand, but requiring an “equip time” would be unprecedented in Alliance and I’m not down with that. I’m cool with a 10 second activation time, though, akin to Break Command.

Earth Casters deserve an extra resource, too.

 

[DiscOH]

To your first suggestion, no. Then Earth Casters get expected to save their spells to heal others, which already happens. In today’s world, a thrown Death means a caster wasted a Life, and they get judged for it. Your suggestion would mean they’d be judged for every Spell they use.

Every spell you memorize is a slot that could have been Healing / Life. Not to mention that effective uses of disable/curses/protectives effectivelynegate the need for healing / life. If a caster is going full reparatives, they're actually doing a bad job of managing class resources.

If people want to play backseat wizard when you're already playing effectively, maybe they should reforge spirit.

 

[Draven]

If a caster is going full reparatives, they're actually doing a bad job of managing class resources.

Please don’t advise people the right way to play the game. It’s incredibly disrespectful.

 

[Muir]

I actually like this idea; I'm not as adamantly opposed to there being support-style classes being in the game as others are; healing, status removal effects, etc. are all, by nature, Support-centered. I think one of the things that is going on with 2.0 is that there SEEMS to be a push toward hyper-specialization for each class, particularly the non-split classes, and I think Earth is Support, Celestial is Damage, Fighters are Gimp, Rogues are opportunistic as they were in days gone by, but without the added QOL changes that have been added it the last 10 years, and the split classes are unfortunate.

About Meditate though, after thinking about it a bit more, I think Meditate needs to just go away and not be a thing.

• It adds training wheels for new players - its stated intent, last I read - that aren't needed. It should feel bad to miss, that's how you get motivated to get better.
• It adds a whole new level of complexity to the high-level game that it frankly doesn't need.
• Enhanced Meditate is yet another unnecessary build sink for both high and low-level players. I get it, you're trying to bring in new players, but at the same time, it feels like high level players are just being crapped on just because they are high level. If the owners don't want high level characters, build in a Level Cap for the game and be done with it. Build sinks for the sake of build sinks are anything but fun.
• Mental Gymnastics - these rules are, more and more, asking players to do math on the fly (Evade), remember what spells/abilities that "missed" versus ones that were defended, Relic Charges, in addition to keeping track of the usual 10-minute timers, keeping track of Wand Charges, Spell Trees, and a whole lot of other things. Remembering what you can and cannot meditate after a 10, 15, 30, or even 60-minute battle? That is highly unlikely to be done with any sort of accuracy. Yeah, I'm sure there's some of that that goes on now, but I know I can't keep track of something like that 100% of the time and be 100% correct. I think the rules should encourage accuracy and honesty, and I don't think this mechanic does this; in fact, I think it does the opposite.

Support as an option is fine. Support as a mandated playstyle that is necessary for gameplay is chaining ourselves more tightly to the thirty year old concrete donkey that is AD&D party design and going snorkeling. I don't think anyone who's been around long enough hasn't run into the question of who 'has to play the Cleric' at least once, and D&D clerics actually have it better than Earth Scholars because they at least get fighting skills and good armor in-class.

 

[Inaryn]

It’s almost like I said previously that relics were a bad idea and that they should just make drop for healing a feature of Earth magic like every sensible tabletop has done since the idea came out with d&d 3.0...

 

[Mulgrum]

It’s almost like I said previously that relics were a bad idea and that they should just make drop for healing a feature of Earth magic like every sensible tabletop has done since the idea came out with d&d 3.0...

I think these are two different issues really. Relics are a way to give Earth scholars a tool that they currently do not have but are balanced against. The drop for healing idea is good, in my opinion a better one is just removing memorization entirely.

 

[Avaran]

-

 

[MaxIrons]

Honestly... And remember this is coming from a C Caster... I think we should just be getting rid of wands instead.

 

[Muir]

That's probably the easiest way to balance, yeah. I -like- wands as a flavor thing. The phys reps are cool looking and very in-genre. They let casters play the 'what elements do you take damage from' game without burning several increasingly powerful spells in the process, and getting that right then tossing an elemental blade on your nearest fighter (or yourself if you're a templar) feels great as a player.

 

[Saephis]

From my perception, Wands were introduced to give Celestial casters something more than <Their Column> to do in a day.

Relics may provide an additional resource, however it does nothing to augment the times-per-day an Earth caster may do something, separate from someone else's ailment.

This is not an equitable system, from that simple standpoint alone.

 

[Durnic]

It’s almost like I said previously that relics were a bad idea and that they should just make drop for healing a feature of Earth magic like every sensible tabletop has done since the idea came out with d&d 3.0...

I proposed "Flex Casting" (my name for it) to the other owners and it didn't get enough traction, unfortunately. I think being able to drop a memorized spell for a equal circle touch-cast heal would be an awesome and flavorful addition to Earth casters everywhere and would have allowed them much more flexibility in choosing their spells for the day.

 

[Draven]

I proposed "Flex Casting" (my name for it) to the other owners and it didn't get enough traction, unfortunately. I think being able to drop a memorized spell for a equal circle touch-cast heal would be an awesome and flavorful addition to Earth casters everywhere and would have allowed them much more flexibility in choosing their spells for the day.

I'm genuinely curious as to why anyone ever thought the problem was that Earth Casters needed more flexibility.

 

[mikestrauss]

I proposed "Flex Casting" (my name for it) to the other owners and it didn't get enough traction, unfortunately. I think being able to drop a memorized spell for a equal circle touch-cast heal would be an awesome and flavorful addition to Earth casters everywhere and would have allowed them much more flexibility in choosing their spells for the day.

Ugh. Why?

Vancian spell casting is pretty much the worst magic system that any RPG in the history of RPGs has ever created. It encourages metagaming and rewards random chance. It is pretty much a real life version of the Prisoner's Dilemma, where the best "selfish" option results in the PCs as a group having the worst selection of spells. It also heavily favors one-shot NPCs much more than weekend long PCs. Even 5th Edition D&D, which pretty much went back to its roots on almost everything, dropped the majority of Vancian spell casting (wizards still memorize, but they can then cast-on-the-fly with open slots from the memorized list).

-MS

 

[Draven]

Ugh. Why?

Vancian spell casting is pretty much the worst magic system that any RPG in the history of RPGs has ever created. It encourages metagaming and rewards random chance. It is pretty much a real life version of the Prisoner's Dilemma, where the best "selfish" option results in the PCs as a group having the worst selection of spells. It also heavily favors one-shot NPCs much more than weekend long PCs. Even 5th Edition D&D, which pretty much went back to its roots on almost everything, dropped the majority of Vancian spell casting (wizards still memorize, but they can then cast-on-the-fly with open slots from the memorized list).

-MS

Your point might be way stronger in a system that has 200+ spells in it, but it loses a whole buncha steam in a game where we've got, what, low 50s per side?

Edit: I mean, I agree that "flex casting" isn't really great, but not for the reasons you've stated.

 

[MondayMcGee]

I'm genuinely curious as to why anyone ever thought the problem was that Earth Casters needed more flexibility.

Hey, I'll take it. Anything that recognizes the fact that not every Earth caster just wants to keep to the back and fix people. I'd love to be able to memorize a weird grab bag of utility spells, and know that if they aren't needed I can always drop 'em for healing.

 

[Draven]

Hey, I'll take it. Anything that recognizes the fact that not every Earth caster just wants to keep to the back and fix people. I'd love to be able to memorize a weird grab bag of utility spells, and know that if they aren't needed I can always drop 'em for healing.

The issue is social in nature; people harp on Earth Casters for throwing Death spells in the current system because it means they "wasted" a potential Life spell.

Now imagine if every spell you ever throw could potentially heal someone else.

Yes, it means you've got "flexibility," but it also means that the culture of Earth Casters being expected to be healbots is only going to become moreso.

 

[Durnic]

Why Flex Casting? Because the mandate was to come up with ideas that were not blatant rip-offs of Celestial abilities to make Earth more "fun". I thought Flex Casting could be interesting because instead of memorizing just healing you could memorize other things like Curse or Binding and "drop it down" to a touch-cast heal instead. You want Binds? Memorize binds! Oh crap, we're fighting creatures tonight that are immune to binds, whoops; well at least now those slots aren't completely wasted. It also gave a player the option of memorizing healing bolts if they wanted so they could throw for massive damage against undead creatures if they wished.

 

[mikestrauss]

You misunderstand me (my bad).

The "Ugh. Why?" was asking why so many owners are committed to the insanely out-of-date, poorly designed spell casting system we have that they dismiss an interesting improvement like "Flex Casting" out of hand.

-MS

 

[MondayMcGee]

@Draven
Fair enough. It's not something I've personally encountered, but I can see how that would be a thing. Especially with Expanded Enchantment going away, there will be less healing to go around in general.

 

[Durnic]

You misunderstand me (my bad).

The "Ugh. Why?" was asking why so many owners are committed to the insanely out-of-date, poorly designed spell casting system we have that they dismiss an interesting improvement like "Flex Casting" out of hand.

-MS

Ah, I see. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

@Draven
Fair enough. It's not something I've personally encountered, but I can see how that would be a thing. Especially with Expanded Enchantment going away, there will be less healing to go around in general.

Well, yes and no. While healing from items will, of course, be almost 0 with the removal of MIs (the only exception I can think of straight away being Spell Stores), I think that with the ability for healing to be memorized in every slot now, there is the potential to have a lot more healing on the field. Probably not likely, but technically possible.

Fewer Lifes, though. That goes without saying.