obcidian_bandit
Count
In such a definition, are you neglecting to include rituals that may be cast to create undead and the like, as well as things such Reverse Life Force, Gift of Life, and Stake of WOE?
~Kerjal
~Kerjal
A frustration...
- Thread starter Izlude_Oranes
- Start date
jpariury
Duke
No, I simply provided a practical definition of what a necromantic item is, not what the local laws consider to be illegal by virtue of use in necromancy. But then, the comment to which Balryn initiated his question was that "items which are necromantic in nature are confiscated" (paraphrasing).
For the record, Gift of Life and Stake of Woe are not necromantic at all. When cast as weird arcane funky dragon whatever, their effects cannot be cloaked with a cloak against necromancy, unlike, say, Transform to Greater Skeletal Warrior. Reverse Lifeforce, for reasons beyond my understanding, can be either necromantic or earth-based, depending on its target. The casting of the ritual to remove one's metabolism is necromantic. The casting of the ritual to add a metabolism to someone who has an undead metabolism is not.... apparently. The scroll never made much sense to me in that regard.
At one time, there was an offer by the Earth Guild to compensate people who turn in necromantic items. My understanding of the financial status of the local earth guild is that they lack the resources to do so at this time. I do not know what arrangements the local soldiering groups offer.
I suspect that the waking world would be better place to try and obtain a copy of the laws.
For the record, Gift of Life and Stake of Woe are not necromantic at all. When cast as weird arcane funky dragon whatever, their effects cannot be cloaked with a cloak against necromancy, unlike, say, Transform to Greater Skeletal Warrior. Reverse Lifeforce, for reasons beyond my understanding, can be either necromantic or earth-based, depending on its target. The casting of the ritual to remove one's metabolism is necromantic. The casting of the ritual to add a metabolism to someone who has an undead metabolism is not.... apparently. The scroll never made much sense to me in that regard.
At one time, there was an offer by the Earth Guild to compensate people who turn in necromantic items. My understanding of the financial status of the local earth guild is that they lack the resources to do so at this time. I do not know what arrangements the local soldiering groups offer.
I suspect that the waking world would be better place to try and obtain a copy of the laws.
Maxondaerth
Squire
Anyone that comes up with necromantic scrolls or items that they find/obtain/whatever that are either unwilling to personally present them to the guard for reasons of reputation or feel they require a reward of some type for giving up their hard earned loot, come see me. I won't pay you merchant's cost for such items, but if I gotta pay out of my own pocket to get such things into the hands of the proper authorities so be it. If you don't see me around town, dream to me or leave word at the Earth Guild or with Evad and I'm sure word will reach my ears and I'll seek you out.
I was more concerned with a variety of more powerful necromantic items. For instance most of the items the town was handling a few weeks ago were of necromantic origin. Are such items considered necromantic?
The ritual cast was also of necromantic origin, again- is it considered necromantic?
The ritual cast was also of necromantic origin, again- is it considered necromantic?
meltedwing
Adept
I think he was defining the origin as Necromantic the same way any ritualist would define the school of a ritual.
I think he's inquiring as to the legality of casting Necromantic rituals. Wouldn't want to get strung up for not having assaulted the Necromancers casting it.
In this case a Necromancer is someone who casts Necromantic spells or rituals. Necromantic being defined as "using the element of Chaos".
I hope that clears things up a little.
I think he's inquiring as to the legality of casting Necromantic rituals. Wouldn't want to get strung up for not having assaulted the Necromancers casting it.
In this case a Necromancer is someone who casts Necromantic spells or rituals. Necromantic being defined as "using the element of Chaos".
I hope that clears things up a little.
jpariury;17921 said:
I'll go with Derek's assertation and also add some scholarly description as well-
The ritual cast specifically dealt with spiritual affect, and required the use of items that were forged through death, decay, and entropy, as well as having the ability to place necromantic effects (cause wounds abilities, etc). All of the items used as components were also marked with a chaos based language and were specifically entailing of the afforementioned primal forces.
I would also consider any ritual as being necromantic if a component in the ritual being used had a chaos based ability, or if the ritual in question focused on spiritual damage or unnatural manipulation of earth and chaos energy that corrupts natural spiritual behavior.
jpariury
Duke
Sure. I just want to make sure we're not going to go down the tiresome sophic road of "ooh, it didn't make sense to me, so it was chaotic, and therefore, necromantic" or "ooh, it has to do with dead people, so its necromancy!"Derek Ironhammer;17923 said:
Oh wait....
This does not mark something as necromantic or not.Balryn said:
Really? A deathly, decaying, entropic mirror? Really? (I'm sure there's a poor joke to be made about you finding necromancy when you look in a mirror, but let's not.) Last I checked, none of the items had anything to do with necromancy, they simply were items owned by people who were permanently dead or undead. There was also a great deal of drama surrounding their previous owners, of the sort generally relegated to poorly-written epics, filled with all manner of cliches. But death, decay, and entropy are not necromancy. They are death, decay, and entropy. Look, they even made separate words for them.
I didn't see that... it would be news to me, and necromantic if true, but not evidence of a necromantic ritual, per se.
I have no idea what that means. Are we saying it was a necromantic language? Is necromancy even a language?
Lovely poetry, that description. But again, most of what you cite was either not in evidence, or is simply selective fashioning, not necromantic.
Understanding that you are mentioning your consideration, rather than the reality of the matter, the reality of it is that some rituals which are not necromantic, as understood by ritualists, but do involve the use of items which produce necromantic effects, or were produced by necromantic beings and such (cariosis being the most obvious one that comes to mind).
That description leaves much open to interpretation. One might suggest that race change, particularly when it is not refusable, falls under such a category, yet I could not cloak it, so I would suggest that your personal definition does not fit reality.
@~}~~
G
Maxondaerth
Squire
Not being a ritualist I can only speak to the feel of the matter and not the art of the matter, but I have a feeling that ritual that was needed in order to release people into the realm of death so that they could live again or not as the natural order intended probably falls legally into that grey area that Gregor mentioned about Reverse Life Force. The legalities seem backward but I'm sure someone who's actually cast it or something like it understands better than me what primal magics are summoned forth for which affect.
As far as the ritual Ashe cast to rid the land of that curse of non-death thing with those tainted items, whatever magics he channeled that night were for the greater good and halted a greater chaos in the land. (Plus, as far as I know, all those items used in it were Obfuscated so we don't know what they really did, or what magics were on them, just theories and observational guesses based on what the things that were using/carrying/wearing them were doing.) I know, I know, it's an "ends justifying the means" argument but dammit, sometimes they do. If I find out that the particular weapon that I'm "destined to wield against the implacable foe that is the Titan" to stop the whole dang world from burning up to nothing is in the middle of a ten square mile valley of poisonous fog that no living breathing creature can get through to get it, you think I won't get someone from the main Earth Guild to craft a Reverse Life Force ritual on me if that's all we got? I know a golem would work too, but if time was short, we had it, and it's gonna save everyone? Abso-fricken'-lootly. The crown wants to try and punish me for it afterward, that's their right, but I'll sleep just fine the next day.
Bottom line, most of us know what types of things are inherently evil and necromantic, and if you're not sure ask someone who does, like a formalist or a ducal guard. Or, as I said before, get it to me and I'll take whatever heat someone tries to bring down on the person bringing it in for identification/disposal/dispersal/whatever. I happen to have a sword that buys me some leeway from the crown in matters such as these, might as well use it.
As far as the ritual Ashe cast to rid the land of that curse of non-death thing with those tainted items, whatever magics he channeled that night were for the greater good and halted a greater chaos in the land. (Plus, as far as I know, all those items used in it were Obfuscated so we don't know what they really did, or what magics were on them, just theories and observational guesses based on what the things that were using/carrying/wearing them were doing.) I know, I know, it's an "ends justifying the means" argument but dammit, sometimes they do. If I find out that the particular weapon that I'm "destined to wield against the implacable foe that is the Titan" to stop the whole dang world from burning up to nothing is in the middle of a ten square mile valley of poisonous fog that no living breathing creature can get through to get it, you think I won't get someone from the main Earth Guild to craft a Reverse Life Force ritual on me if that's all we got? I know a golem would work too, but if time was short, we had it, and it's gonna save everyone? Abso-fricken'-lootly. The crown wants to try and punish me for it afterward, that's their right, but I'll sleep just fine the next day.
Bottom line, most of us know what types of things are inherently evil and necromantic, and if you're not sure ask someone who does, like a formalist or a ducal guard. Or, as I said before, get it to me and I'll take whatever heat someone tries to bring down on the person bringing it in for identification/disposal/dispersal/whatever. I happen to have a sword that buys me some leeway from the crown in matters such as these, might as well use it.
Gregor, going through and addressing incomplete sections of an overall statement does not but highlight if you chop a tree into toothpicks, its no longer a tree. If you take a complete sentance or a complete thought apart, the smaller parts become of changed meaning.
So no, necromancy is not a langauge. There are however several necromantic languages commonly used by greater chaos entities and undead. One can have a gaje language, but again... gaje is not a language.
It is strange that you seek to debate the greater theory of necromancy with me when you all you are doing is questioning whether or not I can realize you seem to have developed skills at not addressing the complete whole by grammatically arguing individual phrases.
I'm not debating what methods may have used to identify an item, just since an object has an obfuscate ritual on it and can't be identified in a circle... doesn't mean there are not more efficient or accurate ways to identify them. By general rule of thumb, one could assume that a variety of magical items carried by various sorts of undead probably have a fairly significant chance of being tainted by necromancy.
Solomon- I understand the need for the greater good. I agree that sometimes there are questionable acts that you must take to achieve the final result. The reason for the questioning however, is to inquire whether the military or political entity in the area has a like-minded viewpoint, or if they believe in the letter of the law and would rather destroy items carrying the taint of necromancy and then deal with the reprecussions of that belief at a later time.
So no, necromancy is not a langauge. There are however several necromantic languages commonly used by greater chaos entities and undead. One can have a gaje language, but again... gaje is not a language.
It is strange that you seek to debate the greater theory of necromancy with me when you all you are doing is questioning whether or not I can realize you seem to have developed skills at not addressing the complete whole by grammatically arguing individual phrases.
I'm not debating what methods may have used to identify an item, just since an object has an obfuscate ritual on it and can't be identified in a circle... doesn't mean there are not more efficient or accurate ways to identify them. By general rule of thumb, one could assume that a variety of magical items carried by various sorts of undead probably have a fairly significant chance of being tainted by necromancy.
Solomon- I understand the need for the greater good. I agree that sometimes there are questionable acts that you must take to achieve the final result. The reason for the questioning however, is to inquire whether the military or political entity in the area has a like-minded viewpoint, or if they believe in the letter of the law and would rather destroy items carrying the taint of necromancy and then deal with the reprecussions of that belief at a later time.
jpariury
Duke
Balryn,
Surely you have a better defense of the discussion than "You're knocking apart my house of cards"? If the premises you build you case on fail on their own merits, then the arguement as a whole is all just a bit of rubbish now, isn't it?
And again, you seem to be asking in the wrong location. What lawholders and writers might dream as true will likely not fit reality.
Surely you have a better defense of the discussion than "You're knocking apart my house of cards"? If the premises you build you case on fail on their own merits, then the arguement as a whole is all just a bit of rubbish now, isn't it?
Actually, such an assumption would be false. Most of the items I find on the undead I have destroyed are not necromantic. Very often, they involve defense against the common methods adventurers would use to take one out quickly: banes and cloaks versus binding, eldritch (for the pesky prisons), and healing. Aside from that, they tend to be of the sort that any adventurer would bring with them - damage auras, activatable binding, prisons, etc. While there are the odd necromantic item here and there, they actually tend to be in the minority, saving, of course, for the rituals themselves. And, in this particular case, the ritual in use was Earth, not Necromancy.
And again, you seem to be asking in the wrong location. What lawholders and writers might dream as true will likely not fit reality.
I'm not trying to debate sections of short sentances or thoughts. I am however debating with you simply because I'd like to keep you from any form of agreement with me. After interactions with you, I'm not particularly interested in trying to justify your ideas of morality and ethics, and I'm not worried about trying to make you believe in something bigger than yourself.
The assumption on my part regarding necromantic origin would be correct. An item of necromantic origin could merely have been created by undead or be used for 'dark' puposes. The exact specifics of how a magical effect can be baned or cloaked is not the only way to define necromancy. Many things may be tainted simply by possession or purpose.
and I am not looking for the letter of the law, I am looking for purpose and understanding of what holds true.
The assumption on my part regarding necromantic origin would be correct. An item of necromantic origin could merely have been created by undead or be used for 'dark' puposes. The exact specifics of how a magical effect can be baned or cloaked is not the only way to define necromancy. Many things may be tainted simply by possession or purpose.
and I am not looking for the letter of the law, I am looking for purpose and understanding of what holds true.
jpariury
Duke
Fascinating. "It was used by undead, for bad purposes, so its necromantic". It would appear that you are, as I surmised at beginning of this, preferring to apply your own personal semantic selection of what a "necromantic item" is, than the definition offered by Derek. Thank you for the confirmation.Balryn said:
most_precious_blood
Newbie
clarification
I was in Silverford to deliver a message recently, and I did a little research in the hall of records. Keep in mind, these are the laws of Silverford; this is the standard the rest of the kingdom should meet, as well. Many of these laws are in place to delegate matters of lesser importance to peers and nobility, taking much strain from the shoulders of their Royal Majesties when needed. I assure you, these passages are not being presented out of reasonable context, or as modified versions in any way.
Items that are defined as Necromantic in nature:
"No citizen shall possess any item which is found to have a Necromantically aspected ritual, nor possess any item of magical power which generates a Necromantically aspected effect."
One would think that was common sense. Clearly, the facts say otherwise.
On punishment:
"Possession of a Necromantic item, as defined above, is a crime punishable by inprisonment, seizure of monies, lands, title, and property, in direct proportion to the seriousness of the offense. Such matters shall be discussed in a court of High Justice, where members of the peerage and nobility shall then decide an appropriate punishment."
Though the passage doesn't clarify, what is being discussed is low treason, and is still punishable by death. It appears that "Spirit" is defined as property... the old laws are written like this to landslide the guilty with a laundry list of crimes, forcing them to confess to the crime they did commit.
A necromancer is also a thief of the Crown's property: your spirit. I do not mean that your spirit is the absolute posession of the Crown, merely that laws are written in such ways to allow more effective prosecution. Physical torture rarely yields truthful confession...
"Active use of a Necromantic item, or the generation of Necromantically aspected effects shall be an act of High Treason. Any trial held for such a crime against the Crown shall be officiated by the master-at-arms of the Kingsguard, overseen by their Royal Majesties at their discretion."
That is, IF you survive to trial. People who stand guilty of high treason often get to know what it feels like to be torn to bits by a mob, long before they get a chance to argue their innocence.
One final statement. Ignorance is no excuse. Get your items identified before you use them. You'll be just as dead falsely accused.
Squire Capt. Ajun Wheeling, AMC
I was in Silverford to deliver a message recently, and I did a little research in the hall of records. Keep in mind, these are the laws of Silverford; this is the standard the rest of the kingdom should meet, as well. Many of these laws are in place to delegate matters of lesser importance to peers and nobility, taking much strain from the shoulders of their Royal Majesties when needed. I assure you, these passages are not being presented out of reasonable context, or as modified versions in any way.
Items that are defined as Necromantic in nature:
"No citizen shall possess any item which is found to have a Necromantically aspected ritual, nor possess any item of magical power which generates a Necromantically aspected effect."
One would think that was common sense. Clearly, the facts say otherwise.
On punishment:
"Possession of a Necromantic item, as defined above, is a crime punishable by inprisonment, seizure of monies, lands, title, and property, in direct proportion to the seriousness of the offense. Such matters shall be discussed in a court of High Justice, where members of the peerage and nobility shall then decide an appropriate punishment."
Though the passage doesn't clarify, what is being discussed is low treason, and is still punishable by death. It appears that "Spirit" is defined as property... the old laws are written like this to landslide the guilty with a laundry list of crimes, forcing them to confess to the crime they did commit.
A necromancer is also a thief of the Crown's property: your spirit. I do not mean that your spirit is the absolute posession of the Crown, merely that laws are written in such ways to allow more effective prosecution. Physical torture rarely yields truthful confession...
"Active use of a Necromantic item, or the generation of Necromantically aspected effects shall be an act of High Treason. Any trial held for such a crime against the Crown shall be officiated by the master-at-arms of the Kingsguard, overseen by their Royal Majesties at their discretion."
That is, IF you survive to trial. People who stand guilty of high treason often get to know what it feels like to be torn to bits by a mob, long before they get a chance to argue their innocence.
One final statement. Ignorance is no excuse. Get your items identified before you use them. You'll be just as dead falsely accused.
Squire Capt. Ajun Wheeling, AMC
jpariury
Duke
(not G's voice)
This does not make sense. I have a dagger that won't let go of me. My friend tells me that it is a chaos dagger. But I do not want a chaos dagger. But it does not let go. I should have known not to touch a dagger from someone who throws crazy magiks around. But it was in the way, so when I moved it, it stuck to me.
Why do I have to die, lose coin, and be a criminal because a crazy dagger stuck itself to me?
Also, sometime people pour out chaos potions on the ground. What crime is that, because that seems bad.
-Kai
This does not make sense. I have a dagger that won't let go of me. My friend tells me that it is a chaos dagger. But I do not want a chaos dagger. But it does not let go. I should have known not to touch a dagger from someone who throws crazy magiks around. But it was in the way, so when I moved it, it stuck to me.
Why do I have to die, lose coin, and be a criminal because a crazy dagger stuck itself to me?
Also, sometime people pour out chaos potions on the ground. What crime is that, because that seems bad.
-Kai
Seattle_Dave
Newbie
<Count Bianco D'Orsini's voice>
Mabel, get the cows in... and where's Doric? He's supposed to help me with this fence! Huh? Oh...
The system we have in place is there to protect the innocent and to determine the guilt of the individuals. No one is guilty of a crime until a court of justice (low or high) has determined them to be. Turning fugitive simply prolongs the process and instills a presumption of guilt amongst your peers
If you were brought to me with a crazy chaos dagger stuck to you (far better than in you, I would think), I would see to it that the dagger were removed and destroyed, and you and yours compensated if the ritual went... awry.
Pouring out potions onto the earth? Chaos hurts the earth, last I knew... no crimethat I know of, but I imagine those sensitive to such things would find them selves seeking recompense for their injuries... Likecows... you reall don't want to make them angry, Mabel!
Mabel, get the cows in... and where's Doric? He's supposed to help me with this fence! Huh? Oh...
The system we have in place is there to protect the innocent and to determine the guilt of the individuals. No one is guilty of a crime until a court of justice (low or high) has determined them to be. Turning fugitive simply prolongs the process and instills a presumption of guilt amongst your peers
If you were brought to me with a crazy chaos dagger stuck to you (far better than in you, I would think), I would see to it that the dagger were removed and destroyed, and you and yours compensated if the ritual went... awry.
Pouring out potions onto the earth? Chaos hurts the earth, last I knew... no crimethat I know of, but I imagine those sensitive to such things would find them selves seeking recompense for their injuries... Likecows... you reall don't want to make them angry, Mabel!
Maxondaerth
Squire
Kai, if you can ask for directions along the way and find a place called the Crossroads, I can help you. I have the scroll you need to get rid of the evil dagger and you won't get into any trouble for having it stuck to you, as long as you don't use it on anyone or anything along the way. I recommend wrapping it in something, tie it up, and put it in the bottom of your pack until you get here. When you get to the Crossroads go to the Earth Guild or the Tavern and ask for Solomon. I'm a hobling, I'm well known around here, and I help wherever I can.