A Loot to Talk About

DiscOH

DiscOH

Adept
When people contribute to a shared loot pile, they do so with 2 expectations.
  1. Everyone else is contributing
  2. Everyone is getting the same portions
There had already been talk about how the first assumption is false (and I will leave talk of such theft to other conversations), but I'm beginning to suspect the second is false as well.

When dividing loot, you can take 3 options that all aim for equity.
  • Random distributions: each agent is equally likely to receive value, even if the amount they receive is vastly different. This is statistically fair but leads to growth inequality. This approach can therefore not be said to produce equity.
  • Complete auctions: if all of the loot is liquidated into gold it becomes a trivial thing to split that gold equally. However, as I've proven earlier, an auction will only ever succeed if the participants expect to get more than they pay. This means the auction's winners all end up with enhanced value and the loot investors end up with strictly less. As such, this approach also does not produce equity.
  • Loot exchange: each agent of an activity receives a "loot ticket" that is good for 1 share of treasure. They can redeem this ticket at their leisure for any loot still remaining in the pile. However, since loot is being distributed on a first come first serve basis, the equity of this approach is somewhat complicated.
As the loot exchange is the most equitable approach, I will spend the rest of this segment taking about options to optimize it

The problem with loot exchange is that it's items need to be based on static valuations in order to calculate the ticket value. Said another way, if you don't know the rough value of each piece of treasure, it isn't possible to determine the entire hoard's value with any accuracy.

Since a hoard will also contain currency of some size, it becomes necessary to compensate valuations for a lack of equivalent liquidity. For instance, if the value of a cure light wounds potion is 10g, you would never choose the potion instead of 10g unless you had an immediate and non-deferrable use for it. Remember, the goal is to make the final claim's piece of treasure as close in value to the first claim.

It is my understanding that the current average valuations for your community are as follows:

Production items - 2.5x production cost
Production tokens - 1.5x production value
O Motes - exactly as a 1 silver coin
Star motes - exactly as a 1 gold coin
Hash motes - exactly as a 1 platinum coin
Reagents - 2g
Scrolls/Magic items - varies month to month (usually auctioned)
Catalysts - insufficient data for estimate

While I know these values are accepted, I don't believe they are accurate.

Gas globes and high level scrolls have a small percentage of the population trained in their use.

Reagents are regularly being bought for above 2g, and almost no one is selling them.

There are blacksmiths from other lands who are sending caravans here to sell for less than what we value our local goods at.

Are universal production points really no more valuable than blacksmith points?

Is a potion of destruction as valuable as remove destruction? Is a wither potion worth 6 CLW?

I have opinions, but for a problem like this yours are more important.

Thank you for your time.
 
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Typically the below is what is used when doing loot split. Although for Scrolls, Catalysts, and Magic Items sometimes it is given to people rather than a auction type of loot share. That should be explained before people go out together and adventure.

Production items - 1x production cost
Production tokens - 1x production value
O Motes - exactly as a 1 silver coin
Star motes - exactly as a 1 gold coin
Hash motes - exactly as a 1 platinum coin
Reagents - 2g
Scrolls/Magic items - Auctioned
Catalysts - Auctioned

That said I keep seeing this loot talk come up over and over again. I will say that if we all can't figure out how to do this in a way that everyone is happy then I will personally be taking charge of the loot splits going forward and you will all have to deal with what I see fit and fair to all those that grouped up. I'm so very tired of this same conversation appearing every year or so when a few people start to stir the pot. Often i see some of the most vocal on this topic some of the very same that I have personally seen pocket items on the field. So I would suggest that everyone all get on the same page quick about how you want to handle loot. and make SURE you agree to terms BEFORE adventuring with each other.
 
Not really chuck. My intent here is only to state that for loot split for as long as I can remember production items were always valued at cost for when dividing up by copper value. That and if people don't start "playing nice" and figure out a loot split that works for all then I will see fit to handle the loot myself . I don't make my money off going out and getting split anyways so it isn't like a gold or two here and there really makes much difference to me. I personally prefer to make loot split much more quicker you auction off any items, scroll, cat, etc. Then take any potions, alchemy, general production and just hand it out to all those involved. If you know one is an alchemist toss them a globe a fighter give them the healing potion or that scholar the wall of force scroll. Sure some might get a slightly higher amount then others. It all works out in the end. If that is to hard for people to wrap their minds around then there is always the ability to start up a WAR chest again. This has saved our asses so many times. We dump any odd coin or other production items into one who can be trusted with this task to hold on to all the goods. In time of Big battles where we know it will take everything we got we have extra potions, scrolls, weapons at our ready instead of scrambling to find them. The extra coin tossed in can be used to higher production people to craft missing items we need in the chest. It is a HUGE task to undertake as I have been in charge of this before. But the end result has saved many lives and in my opinion and I am sure others have bought us some wars in the past.
 
I don't see why you are so opposed to simply talking about it, Sir Tolgar. Perhaps a more satisfactory solution, in the eyes of more people, may yet be found.
 
Goodman Tolgar, that system that you described is exactly the system that we use in Acarthia. I brought it back to our kingdom 2 years ago after visiting Enerret and we have used it townwide since then. Here is the system we use in detail....

https://www.alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/september-treasure-bag.36110/

We have a multi-group coalition that runs the treasure bag made up of around 5-7 people so if one person isn't there, another knows how it works. It is opt-in, but so far, I think only one person in two years has decided to opt-out.
 
MondayMcGee said:
I don't see why you are so opposed to simply talking about it, Sir Tolgar. Perhaps a more satisfactory solution, in the eyes of more people, may yet be found.
Click to expand...
Who is opposed to talk. I would love for all to come to one choice on how they value and divide that which is put into a group loot bag. If you deem potions are worth 10 times productions and everyone is ok with it then great you all have a plan of action which is fair in your minds and people can't say they weren't given a voice on the matter. As stated before though if there is constant bickering and mishandling of the loot then I will take it upon myself to make sure that it gets divided up as I personally see the most fair to all. That is until a majority consensus is made on how it should be handled in the future.
 
Cedric said:
Here is the system we use in detail....
Click to expand...

I love the layers of trust you gain with multiple accountants, and I think there is a lot to gain from a process like this. But the biggest problem we have right now is sightly different.

The value of basic commodities isn't known / agreed on, and we don't have yet the availability to derive value from every object via auction aside from occasional big ticket items (aka auction fatigue).

It's been a chore just to get people to claim the loot they deserve on time.

One of the other puzzles I've been working on is how to the ease delegated loot retrieval without forcing commitment of who is designated before hand. I've gotten some loot receipts premade ((oog, a roll of double receipt carnival tickets)) and I'd like to try handing them out instead of taking down names. This allows you to prove valid designation by handing in additional receipts.

Would people be willing to try this approach?
 
Nod, I see your problem. We have large groups that make it easier to split up at the end of a gather. Over half of the population in New Acarthia belong to a large group, so we have sheets we make at the beginning of the gather with all the people's names present at the gather, and sorted by group. Then for each battle we have a separate pre-made group that we just tick off who is there. I like your idea of tickets though!

As for valuation...it's a hard problem to solve. We've had to tweak as we've gone on based on supply/demand, but we leave it up to the treasure bag team to determine that. They do a lot of work each other, and we trust that they are looking out for the system's best interest. Good luck and I hope that I can visit the lands of Enerret and Maelstrom again soon.
 
Forgive me if I have misinterpreted your words, Sir Tolgar, but when you say that you are tired of this conversation recurring, and then state your intention to handle the loot split yourself in the way you deem fit, it seems reasonable to assume that the one will be the cause of the other. Even as you respond to my question, you characterize the conversation as "bickering." It's clearly an issue that many have strong opinions on, which I interpret to mean that we need more conversation, and to hear more ideas, rather than less.

Desky, your idea of receipts seems a reasonable enough way to relieve some of the burden of paperwork for those handling the split, and I for one am willing to give it a try.
 
Sir Undershaft,

I will openly state that I am still loyal to King Jonah Morganson, but as we cannot return to the Empire of Parna, I have to ask on whose authority will you take this task from others? King Jonah? The Empress? Lord Terren? I only ask because my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we are essentially on a frontier here in the Maelstrom and there is little to govern us in terms of laws, orders, royal decrees, and so on. I am all for impassioned volunteerism, but this tactic seems counter to the ways of your order, unless I'm misremembering.

-Merchant Camthalion "Cam" ArgentFrost
 
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